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Houdini 3
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George Speight



Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 4643
PostPost subject: Re: Houdini 3    Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:05 pm Reply to topic Reply with quote
lkaufman wrote:
MM wrote:
lkaufman wrote:
Mike S. wrote:
[quote="mclane & Stockfish.

Maybe my explanation is even more simple but true: Rybka, Ippo & Co are simply better. Mr. Green The weaker engines just benefit from the bigger draw rates at big depths/long time controls.


This might be a factor for Houdini, but certainly Ivanhoe (Ippo), Rybka, and all other Ippo-related programs are not stronger than Komodo and not measurably stronger than SF except at bullet chess, so this cannot be the explanation here.

There seem to be two theories to explain the observed scaling behavior:
1. Komodo (and perhaps also SF) are more intelligent but slower, and that this tradeoff usually (but not always) favors the fast programs in blitz and the smart programs at long time controls.
2. For whatever reason, the search in Komodo (and perhaps SF) scales better than the search in the Rybka/Ippo family.

Both could be true. If the second is true, can anyone suggest WHY SF might scale better in search than Ivanhoe et al?


I don't think ''intelligence'' is the right word. There are two different approaches to the search in my view.

Ippo family engines have a search for which they find tactical moves in a very short time.
I think it is a question of search (and evaluation). Like humans. Some humans search mainly for tactical moves.
I'm not a programmer but i think it depends by the evaluation that an engine gives to each move that it analyses.
In this way it could happen that all the moves that don't give a ''break'' in the evaluation are discarded or analysed less time (and perhaps they are good positional moves).
If this would be true, it is logical that these engines find more often and more quickly tactical moves.

On the other hand Komodo plays mainly positionally.
Komodo often manouevres his pieces and pawns for many moves without playing any tactical move.

Probably it depends by the fact that Komodo gives a special evaluation on some moves that lead to some positional patterns.

I mean, probably during the search, Komodo seems to make the opposite of the engines of the ippo family.

Then Komodo analyzes more the ''positional moves'' (probably because it consider them better than other moves with its evaluation) and gives less time or discards some tactical moves.

In fact, sometimes Komodo overlooks some tactical moves, and it depends by the search or sometimes by the evaluation.

If all i wrote would be true, it is logical that in very fast time control, ippo family engines excel.

With more time to think, a positional engine like Komodo has 2 advantages:

1. What Komodo overlooks or evaluates bad in a few seconds can be seen well with more time available.

2.The weight of positional play of Komodo increases a lot and becomes more important than its (relative) weakness in tactics.

Generally speaking i think that the strenght of Komodo is that it plays nice positional and logical moves. It seems that it uses the search just to verify that everything is ok.

On the other hand the strenght of ippo family engines is the approach of the search (i think built mainly for tactical moves) and the evaluation that allows them to find sometimes tactical moves apparently hidden.

In long time control, especially in very long time control, tactics ability is almost useless because the opponent (if he has a good search and evaluation) has all the time to see it.

So the thing that has more importance is the positional/strategical sensibility.


Best Regards


I am coming to the conclusion that the relative weakness of both Komodo and Stockfish at bullet speeds vs. slower tests (which is obvious if you compare any bullet list with say the IPON list) is not mainly a question of slowness due to more or slower evaluation. I say this because I noticed that Rybka 4.1 shares the same behavior as Ivanhoe and all the other top programs (except Komodo and Stockfish) in that it is also relatively stronger at bullet speeds than at normal speeds. If we make the assumption that Rybka 4.1 is at least not substantially "dumber" than Rybka 3, I can say that the evaluation I did for Rybka 3 was also rather "smart" and "slow", rather like Komodo, yet Rybka 4.1 shares the behavior of Ippo and family. So I can only conclude that the behavior is due to some aspect of the Ippo and Rybka search that is not present in either Komodo or Stockfish. Since we have at least tried almost every search idea in Ippo (and rejected many of them), I can't guess what that aspect could be. If we can solve this mystery perhaps we can make Komodo as competitive with Houdini at bullet and blitz chess as it already appears to be at longer time controls.





Interesting that you mention the Ippos, Rybka, Houdini- and, I would have to imagine you include Critter. The reason I imagine you use Critter is because you have no choice, really. What amazes me about this pile of engines you have gathered- you don't include Strelka. You can make a great argument for leaving it out- but the argument becomes futile and silly when you leave all the others in. You want to have it both ways. Sorry. Strelka is not MP- but it uses 32bit and 64bit. You use Komodo with either- which noting its lack of strength in 32-bit would have to be 64. We shall both monitor a 50 game match with Komodo on 1cpu vs. Strelka 5.1. You pick the time limit of your choice. In a 50 game match you can start with white- and I will give you the gift of a win in game 1 with no moves. It won't amount to a dot in the universe. Any time control of your choice- I am sorry- Strelka 5.1 will go thru Komodo like Sherman thru Georgia. But that is not being cruel- no other engines can play with him either- outside of Houdini and Critter. And the last match, Critter got his butt kicked. Look, when I say any time limits of your choice- that is up to and thru 40/40. No slower- simply because it is a waste of my time. As it will change nothing, and at 63 time becomes a valuable commodity.


Best regards Larry- it's certainly nothing personal,

george


Please no bars and graphs and formuli that are supposed to show where one program intersects with another. There has already been too much talk and not enough "walk". Let's get the match on.
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Subject Author Date/Time
Houdini 3 Robert Houdart Thu Mar 01, 2012 4:37 pm
      Re: Houdini 3 Bram Mourik Thu Mar 01, 2012 5:07 pm
            Re: Houdini 3 Robert Houdart Thu Mar 01, 2012 5:17 pm
                  Re: Houdini 3 Alfonso Turri Thu Mar 01, 2012 7:43 pm
                        Re: Houdini 3 Dr.Wael Deeb Thu Mar 01, 2012 7:55 pm
                        Re: Houdini 3 Adam Hair Thu Mar 01, 2012 7:55 pm
                        Re: Houdini 3 Robert Houdart Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:00 pm
                              Re: Houdini 3 Ignacio Garcia Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:37 pm
                                    Re: Houdini 3 Robert Houdart Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:18 pm
                                          Re: Houdini 3 Robert Flesher Sat Mar 03, 2012 12:23 am
                                                Re: Houdini 3 Robert Houdart Sat Mar 03, 2012 1:25 am
                              Re: Houdini 3 Mel Cooper Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:39 pm
                                    Re: Houdini 3 Robert Houdart Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:41 pm
                                          Re: Houdini 3 Jimmy Huggins Fri Mar 02, 2012 6:57 am
                                                Re: Houdini 3 Robert Houdart Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:24 am
                                          Re: Houdini 3 Larry Kaufman Fri Mar 02, 2012 11:02 pm
                                                Re: Houdini 3 Richard Vida Sat Mar 03, 2012 2:47 am
                                                      Re: Houdini 3 Dr.Wael Deeb Sat Mar 03, 2012 9:05 am
                                                            Re: Houdini 3 George Speight Sat Mar 03, 2012 9:45 am
                                                      Re: Houdini 3 Larry Kaufman Sat Mar 03, 2012 6:05 pm
                                                            Re: Houdini 3 Maurizio Maglio Sat Mar 03, 2012 6:12 pm
                                                                  Re: Houdini 3 Larry Kaufman Sat Mar 03, 2012 7:09 pm
                                                                        Re: Houdini 3 Thorsten Czub Sat Mar 03, 2012 7:58 pm
                                                            Re: Houdini 3 Thorsten Czub Sat Mar 03, 2012 7:40 pm
                                                                  Re: Houdini 3 Larry Kaufman Sat Mar 03, 2012 7:56 pm
                                                                  Re: Houdini 3 Eelco de Groot Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:06 pm
                                                                        Re: Houdini 3 Carl Bicknell Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:25 pm
                                                                              Re: Houdini 3 Eelco de Groot Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:43 pm
                                                                        Re: Houdini 3 Thorsten Czub Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:30 pm
                                                                              Re: Houdini 3 Maurizio Maglio Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:50 pm
                                                                        Re: Houdini 3 Uri Blass Sat Mar 03, 2012 9:05 pm
                                                                  Re: Houdini 3 Mike Scheidl Sat Mar 03, 2012 9:10 pm
                                                                        Re: Houdini 3 Uri Blass Sat Mar 03, 2012 9:24 pm
                                                                              Re: Houdini 3 Mike Scheidl Sat Mar 03, 2012 9:33 pm
                                                                                    Re: Houdini 3 Thorsten Czub Sat Mar 03, 2012 10:13 pm
                                                                              Re: Houdini 3 Uri Blass Sat Mar 03, 2012 9:38 pm
                                                                        Re: Houdini 3 Thorsten Czub Sat Mar 03, 2012 10:05 pm
                                                                              Re: Houdini 3 Mike Scheidl Sat Mar 03, 2012 10:44 pm
                                                                        Re: Houdini 3 Larry Kaufman Sun Mar 04, 2012 4:21 am
                                                                              Re: Houdini 3 Maurizio Maglio Sun Mar 04, 2012 10:43 am
                                                                                    Re: Houdini 3 Larry Kaufman Tue Mar 06, 2012 4:11 am
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 Bigler Tue Mar 06, 2012 6:23 am
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 Larry Kaufman Tue Mar 06, 2012 3:37 pm
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 Bram Mourik Tue Mar 06, 2012 6:05 pm
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 Larry Kaufman Tue Mar 06, 2012 6:19 pm
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 Sedat Canbaz Tue Mar 06, 2012 6:48 pm
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 Larry Kaufman Tue Mar 06, 2012 6:54 pm
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 Sedat Canbaz Tue Mar 06, 2012 7:05 pm
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 Maurizio Maglio Tue Mar 06, 2012 10:04 pm
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 Larry Kaufman Tue Mar 06, 2012 10:42 pm
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 Bigler Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:36 am
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 George Speight Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:05 pm
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 Uri Blass Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:41 pm
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 Larry Kaufman Tue Mar 06, 2012 9:06 pm
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 George Speight Tue Mar 06, 2012 11:18 pm
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 George Speight Wed Mar 07, 2012 12:32 am
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 Robert Flesher Wed Mar 07, 2012 1:18 am
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 Larry Kaufman Wed Mar 07, 2012 1:59 am
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 Robert Flesher Wed Mar 07, 2012 2:09 am
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 Robert Flesher Wed Mar 07, 2012 12:53 am
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 George Speight Wed Mar 07, 2012 8:30 am
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 Robert Flesher Wed Mar 07, 2012 1:45 pm
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 George Speight Thu Mar 08, 2012 9:17 pm
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 Robert Flesher Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:34 pm
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 Larry Kaufman Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:24 am
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 Robert Flesher Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:14 am
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 M ANSARI Fri Mar 09, 2012 4:15 am
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 Larry Kaufman Fri Mar 09, 2012 4:32 am
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 Timo Klaustermeyer Fri Mar 09, 2012 6:28 am
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 Uri Blass Fri Mar 09, 2012 8:44 am
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 Sedat Canbaz Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:04 am
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 Timo Klaustermeyer Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:28 am
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 Sedat Canbaz Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:05 pm
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 Timo Klaustermeyer Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:30 pm
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 Sedat Canbaz Sat Mar 10, 2012 9:54 am
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 M ANSARI Fri Mar 30, 2012 6:20 am
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 Peter Kasinski Fri Mar 30, 2012 11:49 am
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 Sedat Canbaz Sun Apr 08, 2012 1:52 pm
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 M ANSARI Sat Mar 10, 2012 4:59 am
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 Larry Kaufman Sat Mar 10, 2012 6:33 am
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 Ron Langeveld Sat Mar 10, 2012 8:54 am
                                                                  Re: Houdini 3 Vincent Diepeveen Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:26 am
                                                                        Re: Houdini 3 Thorsten Czub Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:32 am
                                                                              Re: Houdini 3 Vincent Diepeveen Thu Mar 08, 2012 1:06 pm
                                                                                    Re: Houdini 3 Carl Bicknell Thu Mar 08, 2012 2:33 pm
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 Thorsten Czub Thu Mar 08, 2012 2:48 pm
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 S.Taylor Mon Mar 12, 2012 12:36 am
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 Carl Bicknell Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:25 am
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 Thorsten Czub Mon Mar 12, 2012 6:02 pm
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 Thorsten Czub Fri Mar 30, 2012 12:28 pm
                                                                                    Re: Houdini 3 Sedat Canbaz Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:40 pm
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 Ed Schroder Fri Mar 30, 2012 12:47 pm
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 Sedat Canbaz Sun Apr 08, 2012 2:02 pm
                                                            Re: Houdini 3 Uri Blass Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:30 pm
                                                                  Re: Houdini 3 Uri Blass Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:49 pm
                                                            Re: Houdini 3 Sedat Canbaz Sun Mar 04, 2012 2:11 am
                                                Re: Houdini 3 Uri Blass Sat Mar 03, 2012 10:26 am
                                          Re: Houdini 3 Marijan Stipancic jr Sat Mar 03, 2012 10:38 am
                                                Re: Houdini 3 Marek Kwiatkowski Sat Mar 03, 2012 11:45 am
                                                Re: Houdini 3 Dr.Wael Deeb Sun Mar 04, 2012 8:41 am
                                                      Re: Houdini 3 Marijan Stipancic jr Sun Mar 04, 2012 10:38 pm
                                                            Re: Houdini 3 Dr.Wael Deeb Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:27 am
                                          Re: Houdini 3 S.Taylor Sun Mar 04, 2012 1:28 am
                  Re: Houdini 3 Maurizio Maglio Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:33 am
                        Re: Houdini 3 Vael Jean-Paul Sun Mar 04, 2012 2:02 pm
                              Re: Houdini 3 Maurizio Maglio Sun Mar 04, 2012 2:16 pm
                                    Re: Houdini 3 Sedat Canbaz Sun Mar 04, 2012 5:17 pm
                                          Re: Houdini 3 Maurizio Maglio Sun Mar 04, 2012 5:32 pm
                                                Re: Houdini 3 Dr.Wael Deeb Sun Mar 04, 2012 5:46 pm
                                                      Re: Houdini 3 Sedat Canbaz Sun Mar 04, 2012 10:45 pm
                                                            Re: Houdini 3 Dr.Wael Deeb Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:30 am
                                                                  Re: Houdini 3 Joel Martus Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:12 pm
                                                                        Re: Houdini 3 Dr.Wael Deeb Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:22 pm
                                                Re: Houdini 3 Sedat Canbaz Sun Mar 04, 2012 6:23 pm
                                                      Re: Houdini 3 Maurizio Maglio Sun Mar 04, 2012 6:49 pm
                                                            Re: Houdini 3 Sedat Canbaz Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:00 am
      Re: Houdini 3 Ben-Hur Carlos Langoni Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:34 pm
            Re: Houdini 3 Robert Houdart Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:47 pm
      Re: Houdini 3 Teodoriu Catalin Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:46 pm
            Re: Houdini 3 Robert Houdart Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:52 pm
            Re: Houdini 3 Nelson Hernandez Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:51 pm
                  Re: Houdini 3 Teodoriu Catalin Fri Mar 02, 2012 8:45 am
                        Re: Houdini 3 Nelson Hernandez Fri Mar 02, 2012 2:34 pm
                              Re: Houdini 3 Teodoriu Catalin Fri Mar 02, 2012 5:10 pm
      Re: Houdini 3 Marco Costalba Sat Mar 03, 2012 9:18 am
            Re: Houdini 3 Bram Mourik Sat Mar 03, 2012 9:53 am
            Re: Houdini 3 Ed Schroder Sat Mar 03, 2012 1:04 pm
                  Re: Houdini 3 Marco Costalba Sat Mar 03, 2012 5:18 pm
            Re: Houdini 3 Miguel A. Ballicora Sat Mar 03, 2012 6:07 pm
                  Re: Houdini 3 Ben-Hur Carlos Langoni Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:28 pm
            Re: Houdini 3 George Speight Mon Mar 12, 2012 10:02 am
      Re: Houdini 3 fernando Sun Apr 08, 2012 3:54 pm
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