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Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top GMs
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Jorge Pichard



Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 2558
PostPost subject: Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top    Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 11:49 am Reply to topic Reply with quote
Don wrote:
MM wrote:
Don wrote:
Houdini wrote:
Terry McCracken wrote:
Are you serious? Kasparov use to play these simple positions in his sleep, so did many of the elite past and present.

How many super grandmasters post here? None?

To advance the discussion beyond a shouting contest, let's discuss the "Tarrasch" point of view that Re3 is superior to Re7+, a view that is not shared by Houdini.

Can you explain the following:
1) How does white win after 1.Re3 if black replies Kd6 and Rd5.
2) How does black have "good drawing chances" after 1.Re7+ Kd6 2.Rxg7 Rxd3 3.h4 Rd1+ 4.Kh2 Rd2 5.Rxh7 Rxb2 6.h5 - Houdini thinks that the final position is a straightforward win for white.

Robert


I think players tend to "over-romanticize" top players. When I was a kid I read books that made it seem like these guys were practically god's.

I believe that you "over-romanticize" your engine Komodo and you believe that top engines are invincible in all stages of the game, but in the endgame without tablebase they are still inferiors to the top human Gms like Arorian and Kramnik. I know that they make mistakes in some endings that engines will never make, but in most of those cases that they do is because they are in time trouble which will not happens if they are provided with a fix time control such 10 minutes per move. If Capablanca was alive I would bet you $10,000 per each ending setting versus your engine komodo without tablebase playing 5 or 6 endings in which the position is evaluated equal for both side with a time control of 10 minutes per move.

We have the ELO system which does a fair job of quantifying the skills of the top players and hopefully that demystifies them somewhat. But whether people like it or not, computers have passed them (and it's been a few years already) and the gap will only get wider.

Don


Computers have passed humans only in tactics. Planning and , generally speaking, strategy are on humans' side.



Computer have also passed humans in ELO.

Quote:


Often computers fail endgames in which you need a right plan more than a long calculation.

Regards


Computer outplay humans in endgames too. There are specific weaknesses computer have which sometimes show up, but it's not enough to prevent the large ELO superiority they have over humans.
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Subject Author Date/Time
Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top GMs Jorge Pichard Sat Mar 24, 2012 3:24 pm
      Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Jon Dart Sat Mar 24, 2012 3:51 pm
            Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Jorge Pichard Sat Mar 24, 2012 4:10 pm
                  Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Jon Dart Sat Mar 24, 2012 4:33 pm
                  Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Don Dailey Sat Mar 24, 2012 4:48 pm
                        Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Jorge Pichard Sat Mar 24, 2012 4:59 pm
                              Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Norm Pollock Sat Mar 24, 2012 5:18 pm
                                    Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Don Dailey Sat Mar 24, 2012 6:44 pm
                              Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Don Dailey Sat Mar 24, 2012 6:27 pm
                                    Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Rein Halbersma Sat Mar 24, 2012 7:00 pm
                                    Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Jorge Pichard Sat Mar 24, 2012 10:21 pm
                        Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Lonnie Cook Sun Mar 25, 2012 11:40 am
      Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Robert Houdart Sat Mar 24, 2012 7:18 pm
            Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Maurizio Maglio Sat Mar 24, 2012 7:32 pm
                  Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Maurizio Maglio Sat Mar 24, 2012 7:45 pm
            Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Terry McCracken Sat Mar 24, 2012 7:56 pm
                  Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Robert Houdart Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:12 pm
                        Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Don Dailey Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:20 pm
                              Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Terry McCracken Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:27 pm
                                    Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Seb Dragulic Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:41 pm
                                          Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Terry McCracken Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:45 pm
                              Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Maurizio Maglio Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:44 pm
                                    Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Don Dailey Sun Mar 25, 2012 12:18 am
                                          Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Maurizio Maglio Sun Mar 25, 2012 7:48 am
                                          Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Jorge Pichard Sun Mar 25, 2012 11:49 am
                                          Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Ron Langeveld Sun Mar 25, 2012 12:44 pm
                                                Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Don Dailey Sun Mar 25, 2012 12:59 pm
                                                      Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top George Speight Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:23 pm
                                                            Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Jorge Pichard Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:32 pm
                                                                  Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Don Dailey Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:48 pm
                                                                        Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Don Dailey Sun Mar 25, 2012 2:29 pm
                                                            Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Don Dailey Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:38 pm
                                                                  Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top George Speight Sun Mar 25, 2012 2:09 pm
                                                                        Re: Time to test Komodo with endgames positions............. Jorge Pichard Sun Mar 25, 2012 2:21 pm
                                                                              Re: Time to test Komodo with endgames positions............. Don Dailey Sun Mar 25, 2012 3:00 pm
                                                                                    Re: Time to test Komodo with endgames positions............. Marek Kwiatkowski Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:09 pm
                                                                                          Re: Time to test Komodo with endgames positions............. Don Dailey Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:20 pm
                                                                                          Re: Time to test Komodo with endgames positions............. Marek Kwiatkowski Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:43 pm
                                                                                          Re: Time to test Komodo with endgames positions............. Jorge Pichard Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:37 pm
                                                                                          Re: Time to test Komodo with endgames positions............. Don Dailey Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:26 pm
                                                                                          Re: Time to test Komodo with endgames positions............. Marek Kwiatkowski Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:59 pm
                                                                                          Re: Time to test Komodo with endgames positions............. Terry McCracken Sun Mar 25, 2012 9:06 pm
                                                                                          Re: Time to test Komodo with endgames positions............. Marek Kwiatkowski Sun Mar 25, 2012 10:02 pm
                                                                                          Re: Time to test Komodo with endgames positions............. Don Dailey Sun Mar 25, 2012 10:44 pm
                                                                                          Re: Time to test Komodo with endgames positions............. Don Dailey Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:18 am
                                                                                          Re: Time to test Komodo with endgames positions............. Jorge Pichard Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:11 am
                                                                                          Re: Time to test Komodo with endgames positions............. Uri Zlatnik Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:33 am
                                                                                          Re: Time to test Komodo with endgames positions............. Uri Zlatnik Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:34 am
                                                                                          Re: Time to test Komodo with endgames positions............. Uri Zlatnik Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:34 am
                                                                                          Re: Time to test Komodo with endgames positions............. Terry McCracken Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:45 am
                                                                                          Re: You don't have to be a super GM to beat top engines..... Jorge Pichard Mon Mar 26, 2012 3:22 am
                                                                                          Re: You don't have to be a super GM to beat top engines..... Don Dailey Mon Mar 26, 2012 5:08 am
                                                                                          Re: You don't have to be a super GM to beat top engines..... Don Dailey Mon Mar 26, 2012 1:50 pm
                                                                                          Re: You don't have to be a super GM to beat top engines..... Jorge Pichard Mon Mar 26, 2012 4:06 pm
                                                                                          Re: You don't have to be a super GM to beat top engines..... Don Dailey Mon Mar 26, 2012 4:34 pm
                                                                                          Re: You don't have to be a super GM to beat top engines..... Don Dailey Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:34 pm
                                                                                          Re: You don't have to be a super GM to beat top engines..... Don Dailey Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:39 pm
                                                                                          Re: You don't have to be a super GM to beat top engines..... Marek Kwiatkowski Mon Mar 26, 2012 9:53 pm
                                                                                          Re: You don't have to be a super GM to beat top engines..... Don Dailey Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:08 pm
                                                                                          Re: You don't have to be a super GM to beat top engines..... Don Dailey Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:29 pm
                                                                                          Re: You don't have to be a super GM to beat top engines..... Marek Kwiatkowski Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:44 pm
                                                                                          Re: Who play the ending better Houdini or Komodo without TB Jorge Pichard Mon Mar 26, 2012 11:05 pm
                                                                                          Re: Who play the ending better Houdini or Komodo without TB Don Dailey Tue Mar 27, 2012 3:57 am
                                                                                          Re: Who play the ending better Houdini or Komodo without TB Jorge Pichard Tue Mar 27, 2012 8:08 pm
                                                                                          Re: Certain engines still can not evaluate as good as a GM Jorge Pichard Tue Mar 27, 2012 10:36 pm
                                                                                    Re: Time to test Komodo with endgames positions............. Jorge Pichard Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:27 pm
                                                                                    Re: Time to test Komodo with endgames positions............. Maurizio Maglio Sun Mar 25, 2012 9:38 pm
                                                                        Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Don Dailey Sun Mar 25, 2012 2:34 pm
                              Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Seb Dragulic Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:49 pm
                                    Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Maurizio Maglio Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:53 pm
                                          Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Seb Dragulic Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:57 pm
                                                Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Maurizio Maglio Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:05 pm
                                                      Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Seb Dragulic Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:20 pm
                                                            Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Maurizio Maglio Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:27 pm
                                                                  Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Seb Dragulic Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:34 pm
                                    Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Don Dailey Sun Mar 25, 2012 12:20 am
                                          Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Seb Dragulic Sun Mar 25, 2012 12:26 am
                        Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Seb Dragulic Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:22 pm
                        Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Maurizio Maglio Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:22 pm
                        Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Terry McCracken Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:29 pm
      Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Mike Scheidl Sun Mar 25, 2012 2:58 am
            Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Jorge Pichard Sun Mar 25, 2012 3:04 am
                  Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Mike Scheidl Sun Mar 25, 2012 3:44 am
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