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Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top GMs
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Don Dailey



Joined: 29 Apr 2008
Posts: 4323
PostPost subject: Re: Time to test Komodo with endgames positions.............    Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 10:44 pm Reply to topic Reply with quote
lech wrote:
Terry McCracken wrote:

It's good you will evaluate it. There's always something to learn. The Endgame is very much a fertile ground of research for GM/s and for programmers of GM engines.

Lesson 1: Wink
Stockfish needs 14 depths to breake a bonus for passed pawns in this simple position.



What is this supposed to prove? This position is a win for white and Komodo see's the answer all the way to checkmate in about 30 seconds.

Quote:


[d]8/8/8/8/4k3/7p/3PK2P/8 w - - 0 1
   ::    ::    ::    ::
::    ::    ::    ::    
   ::    ::    ::    ::
::    ::    ::    ::    
   ::    :: BK ::    ::
::    ::    ::    :: BP
   ::    WP WK ::    WP
::    ::    ::    ::    


Code:

Stockfish-222-32-ja:
  1/2   00:01             16   12   +0,88   d2d3+ Ke4d4
  2/4   00:01             67   51   +0,76   d2d3+ Ke4d4 Ke2d2
  3/4   00:01            133   101   +0,88   d2d3+ Ke4d4 Ke2d2 Kd4d5
  4/6   00:01            351   267   +0,92   d2d3+ Ke4d4 Ke2d2 Kd4d5 Kd2e3
  5/7   00:01            875   658   +1,13   d2d3+ Ke4d4 Ke2d2 Kd4d5 Kd2e3 Kd5e5 d3d4+ Ke5d5
  6/8   00:01          1.352   1.018   +1,13   d2d3+ Ke4d4 Ke2d2 Kd4d5 Kd2e3 Kd5e5 d3d4+ Ke5d5
  7/10   00:01          2.962   2.230   +1,41   d2d3+ Ke4d4 Ke2d2 Kd4d5 Kd2e3 Kd5e5 d3d4+ Ke5d5 Ke3d3 Kd5e6
  8/13   00:01          4.623   3.481   +1,57   Ke2f2 Ke4f4 d2d3 Kf4g4 Kf2e3 Kg4f5 d3d4 Kf5e6 Ke3e4 Ke6d6 Ke4e3
  9/14   00:01          7.981   5.938   +1,77   Ke2f2 Ke4f4 d2d3 Kf4g4 Kf2e3 Kg4f5 d3d4 Kf5e6 Ke3e4 Ke6d7 Ke4e5 Kd7e7 Ke5e4 Ke7e6 Ke4e3 Ke6d6 Ke3e4 Kd6e6
 10/14   00:01         13.053   9.712   +2,18   Ke2f2 Ke4f4 d2d3 Kf4g4 Kf2e3 Kg4f5 d3d4 Kf5e6 Ke3e4 Ke6d7 Ke4e5 Kd7e7 d4d5 Ke7d7
 11/14   00:01         14.445   10.621   +2,18   Ke2f2 Ke4f4 d2d3 Kf4g4 Kf2e3 Kg4f5 d3d4 Kf5e6 Ke3e4 Ke6d7 Ke4e5 Kd7e7 d4d5 Ke7d7
 12/19   00:01         29.183   21.224   +2,82   Ke2f2 Ke4f4 d2d3 Kf4g4 Kf2e3 Kg4f5 d3d4 Kf5e6 Ke3e4 Ke6d7 Ke4e5 Kd7e7 d4d5 Ke7d7 d5d6 Kd7d8 Ke5e6 Kd8e8 Ke6e5
 13/19   00:01         33.683   24.496   +2,82   Ke2f2 Ke4f4 d2d3 Kf4g4 Kf2e3 Kg4f5 d3d4 Kf5e6 Ke3e4 Ke6d7 Ke4e5 Kd7e7 d4d5 Ke7d7 d5d6 Kd7d8 Ke5e6 Kd8e8 Ke6e5
 14/23   00:01         61.564   43.786   +3,27   Ke2f2 Ke4f4 d2d3 Kf4g4 Kf2e3 Kg4f5 Ke3f3 Kf5e6 Kf3g4 Ke6e5 Kg4xh3 Ke5f4 d3d4 Kf4e4 Kh3g3 Ke4f5 h2h4 Kf5f6 h4h5 Kf6g5 Kg3f3
 15/28   00:01        111.337   76.625   +5,05   Ke2f2 Ke4f4 d2d3 Kf4g4 Kf2e3 Kg4f5 Ke3f3 Kf5e6 Kf3g4 Ke6e5 Kg4xh3 Ke5f4 d3d4 Kf4e4 Kh3g3 Ke4f5 h2h4 Kf5f6 h4h5 Kf6g7 d4d5 Kg7f7 h5h6 Kf7g6 d5d6


In common sense it is better to have a higher passed pawn. But not in lots of pawn endgames.
It is good, if it starts from root. Imagine, problems on much higher ply.

Lesson 2: Wink
It is possible to get this possition on a very high ply. It needs 20 additional depths to verify that it is a wrong choise.

[d] 8/8/4k3/8/3PK3/7p/7P/8 w - - 0 1
   ::    ::    ::    ::
::    ::    ::    ::    
   ::    :: BK ::    ::
::    ::    ::    ::    
   ::    WP WK ::    ::
::    ::    ::    :: BP
   ::    ::    ::    WP
::    ::    ::    ::    

You're kidding right? This is a simple draw and there is no right or wrong choices here. Let me give you a lesson:

lesson 1: Rook pawn draws as long as defender can get on f8.
lesson 2: If rook pawns are missing position is a draw anyway. This plays like a simple KPvsK due to locked h pawns.

Komodo see's this as a draw, although it does take several ply, but it takes only 2 or 3 seconds.

Quote:


Code:

Stockfish-222-32-ja:
  1/2   00:00             14   22   +1,53   d4d5+ Ke6d6
  2/3   00:00             50   80   +1,41   d4d5+ Ke6d6 Ke4d4
  3/4   00:00            134   214   +2,06   d4d5+ Ke6d6 Ke4d4 Kd6d7
  4/6   00:00            377   603   +1,97   d4d5+ Ke6d7 Ke4e5 Kd7e7 Ke5e4
  5/6   00:00            682   1.091   +1,93   d4d5+ Ke6d7 Ke4d4 Kd7d6 Kd4e4 Kd6c5
  6/9   00:00          1.916   2.989   +2,86   d4d5+ Ke6d6 Ke4d4 Kd6e7 Kd4e5 Ke7d7 d5d6 Kd7c6 Ke5e6
  7/10   00:00          2.325   3.627   +2,90   d4d5+ Ke6d6 Ke4d4 Kd6d7 Kd4e5 Kd7e7 d5d6+ Ke7d7 Ke5d5 Kd7d8 Kd5e5 Kd8d7
  8/12   00:00          2.865   4.367   +2,94   d4d5+ Ke6d6 Ke4d4 Kd6d7 Kd4e5 Kd7e7 d5d6+ Ke7d7 Ke5d5 Kd7d8 Kd5e6 Kd8e8
  9/13   00:00          3.634   5.539   +2,86   d4d5+ Ke6d6 Ke4d4 Kd6d7 Kd4e5 Kd7e7 d5d6+ Ke7d7 Ke5d5 Kd7d8 Kd5e6 Kd8e8 Ke6e5 Ke8d7
 10/16   00:00          6.117   9.324   +2,86   d4d5+ Ke6d6 Ke4d4 Kd6d7 Kd4e5 Kd7e7 d5d6+ Ke7d7 Ke5d5 Kd7d8 Kd5e4 Kd8e8 Ke4d4 Ke8d7 Kd4e5 Kd7c6 Ke5e6
 11/16   00:00          6.558   9.758   +2,86   d4d5+ Ke6d6 Ke4d4 Kd6d7 Kd4e5 Kd7e7 d5d6+ Ke7d7 Ke5d5 Kd7d8 Kd5e4 Kd8e8 Ke4d4 Ke8d7 Kd4e5 Kd7c6 Ke5e6
 12/16   00:00          8.601   12.799   +2,86   d4d5+ Ke6d6 Ke4d4 Kd6d7 Kd4e5 Kd7e7 d5d6+ Ke7d7 Ke5d5 Kd7d8 Kd5e4 Kd8e8 Ke4d4 Ke8d7 Kd4e5 Kd7d8 Ke5d5 Kd8d7 Kd5c5 Kd7d8 Kc5d4 Kd8e8 Kd4e4 Ke8d7 Ke4e5
 13/16   00:00         10.599   15.772   +2,86   d4d5+ Ke6d6 Ke4d4 Kd6d7 Kd4e5 Kd7e7 d5d6+ Ke7d7 Ke5d5 Kd7d8 Kd5e4 Kd8e8 Ke4d5 Ke8d8
 14/20   00:00         16.496   24.547   +2,86   d4d5+ Ke6d6 Ke4d4 Kd6d7 Kd4e5 Kd7e7 d5d6+ Ke7d7 Ke5d5 Kd7d8 Kd5c6 Kd8c8 Kc6d5 Kc8d7 Kd5c5 Kd7d8 Kc5c6
 15/22   00:00         22.711   33.010   +2,74   d4d5+ Ke6d6 Ke4d4 Kd6d7 Kd4e5 Kd7e7 d5d6+ Ke7d7 Ke5d5 Kd7d8 Kd5c6 Kd8c8 Kc6b6 Kc8d8 Kb6b5 Kd8d7 Kb5c5 Kd7d8 Kc5d4 Kd8e8 Kd4c4 Ke8d8 Kc4b5
 16/22   00:00         28.888   41.988   +2,74   d4d5+ Ke6d6 Ke4d4 Kd6d7 Kd4e5 Kd7e7 d5d6+ Ke7d7 Ke5d5 Kd7d8 Kd5e6 Kd8e8 Ke6d5 Ke8d7 Kd5c5 Kd7d8 Kc5c6 Kd8c8 Kc6b6 Kc8d8 Kb6b5 Kd8d7 Kb5c5
 17/24   00:00         37.824   53.803   +2,74   d4d5+ Ke6d6 Ke4d4 Kd6d7 Kd4e5 Kd7e7 d5d6+ Ke7d7 Ke5d5 Kd7d8 Kd5c6 Kd8c8 Kc6b5 Kc8d7 Kb5c5 Kd7d8 Kc5c6
 18/24   00:00         44.169   62.829   +2,74   d4d5+ Ke6d6 Ke4d4 Kd6d7 Kd4e5 Kd7e7 d5d6+ Ke7d7 Ke5d5 Kd7d8 Kd5c6 Kd8c8 Kc6b5 Kc8d7 Kb5c5 Kd7d8 Kc5c6
 19/24   00:00         56.893   79.127   +2,74   d4d5+ Ke6d6 Ke4d4 Kd6d7 Kd4e5 Kd7e7 d5d6+ Ke7d7 Ke5d5 Kd7d8 Kd5c6 Kd8c8 Kc6b5 Kc8d7 Kb5c5 Kd7d8 Kc5d4 Kd8e8 Kd4c4 Ke8d8 Kc4d5 Kd8d7 Kd5e5 Kd7d8 Ke5d4
 20/28   00:00        183.986   226.305   +1,69   d4d5+ Ke6d6 Ke4d4 Kd6d7 Kd4e5 Kd7e7 Ke5f5 Ke7d7 Kf5e5
 21/28   00:00        417.863   445.482    0,00   d4d5+ Ke6d6 Ke4d4 Kd6d7 Kd4e5 Kd7e7 d5d6+ Ke7d7 Ke5d5 Kd7d8 Kd5e4 Kd8d7 Ke4e5 Kd7d8 Ke5d5 Kd8d7 Kd5c5 Kd7d8 Kc5c4 Kd8e8 Kc4d4 Ke8d8 Kd4d5


Both are very easy examples only.

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"Your superior intellect is no match for our puny weapons." -Kang and Kodos
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Subject Author Date/Time
Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top GMs Jorge Pichard Sat Mar 24, 2012 3:24 pm
      Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Jon Dart Sat Mar 24, 2012 3:51 pm
            Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Jorge Pichard Sat Mar 24, 2012 4:10 pm
                  Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Jon Dart Sat Mar 24, 2012 4:33 pm
                  Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Don Dailey Sat Mar 24, 2012 4:48 pm
                        Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Jorge Pichard Sat Mar 24, 2012 4:59 pm
                              Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Norm Pollock Sat Mar 24, 2012 5:18 pm
                                    Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Don Dailey Sat Mar 24, 2012 6:44 pm
                              Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Don Dailey Sat Mar 24, 2012 6:27 pm
                                    Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Rein Halbersma Sat Mar 24, 2012 7:00 pm
                                    Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Jorge Pichard Sat Mar 24, 2012 10:21 pm
                        Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Lonnie Cook Sun Mar 25, 2012 11:40 am
      Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Robert Houdart Sat Mar 24, 2012 7:18 pm
            Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Maurizio Maglio Sat Mar 24, 2012 7:32 pm
                  Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Maurizio Maglio Sat Mar 24, 2012 7:45 pm
            Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Terry McCracken Sat Mar 24, 2012 7:56 pm
                  Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Robert Houdart Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:12 pm
                        Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Don Dailey Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:20 pm
                              Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Terry McCracken Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:27 pm
                                    Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Seb Dragulic Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:41 pm
                                          Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Terry McCracken Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:45 pm
                              Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Maurizio Maglio Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:44 pm
                                    Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Don Dailey Sun Mar 25, 2012 12:18 am
                                          Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Maurizio Maglio Sun Mar 25, 2012 7:48 am
                                          Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Jorge Pichard Sun Mar 25, 2012 11:49 am
                                          Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Ron Langeveld Sun Mar 25, 2012 12:44 pm
                                                Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Don Dailey Sun Mar 25, 2012 12:59 pm
                                                      Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top George Speight Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:23 pm
                                                            Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Jorge Pichard Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:32 pm
                                                                  Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Don Dailey Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:48 pm
                                                                        Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Don Dailey Sun Mar 25, 2012 2:29 pm
                                                            Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Don Dailey Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:38 pm
                                                                  Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top George Speight Sun Mar 25, 2012 2:09 pm
                                                                        Re: Time to test Komodo with endgames positions............. Jorge Pichard Sun Mar 25, 2012 2:21 pm
                                                                              Re: Time to test Komodo with endgames positions............. Don Dailey Sun Mar 25, 2012 3:00 pm
                                                                                    Re: Time to test Komodo with endgames positions............. Marek Kwiatkowski Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:09 pm
                                                                                          Re: Time to test Komodo with endgames positions............. Don Dailey Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:20 pm
                                                                                          Re: Time to test Komodo with endgames positions............. Marek Kwiatkowski Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:43 pm
                                                                                          Re: Time to test Komodo with endgames positions............. Jorge Pichard Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:37 pm
                                                                                          Re: Time to test Komodo with endgames positions............. Don Dailey Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:26 pm
                                                                                          Re: Time to test Komodo with endgames positions............. Marek Kwiatkowski Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:59 pm
                                                                                          Re: Time to test Komodo with endgames positions............. Terry McCracken Sun Mar 25, 2012 9:06 pm
                                                                                          Re: Time to test Komodo with endgames positions............. Marek Kwiatkowski Sun Mar 25, 2012 10:02 pm
                                                                                          Re: Time to test Komodo with endgames positions............. Don Dailey Sun Mar 25, 2012 10:44 pm
                                                                                          Re: Time to test Komodo with endgames positions............. Don Dailey Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:18 am
                                                                                          Re: Time to test Komodo with endgames positions............. Jorge Pichard Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:11 am
                                                                                          Re: Time to test Komodo with endgames positions............. Uri Zlatnik Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:33 am
                                                                                          Re: Time to test Komodo with endgames positions............. Uri Zlatnik Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:34 am
                                                                                          Re: Time to test Komodo with endgames positions............. Uri Zlatnik Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:34 am
                                                                                          Re: Time to test Komodo with endgames positions............. Terry McCracken Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:45 am
                                                                                          Re: You don't have to be a super GM to beat top engines..... Jorge Pichard Mon Mar 26, 2012 3:22 am
                                                                                          Re: You don't have to be a super GM to beat top engines..... Don Dailey Mon Mar 26, 2012 5:08 am
                                                                                          Re: You don't have to be a super GM to beat top engines..... Don Dailey Mon Mar 26, 2012 1:50 pm
                                                                                          Re: You don't have to be a super GM to beat top engines..... Jorge Pichard Mon Mar 26, 2012 4:06 pm
                                                                                          Re: You don't have to be a super GM to beat top engines..... Don Dailey Mon Mar 26, 2012 4:34 pm
                                                                                          Re: You don't have to be a super GM to beat top engines..... Don Dailey Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:34 pm
                                                                                          Re: You don't have to be a super GM to beat top engines..... Don Dailey Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:39 pm
                                                                                          Re: You don't have to be a super GM to beat top engines..... Marek Kwiatkowski Mon Mar 26, 2012 9:53 pm
                                                                                          Re: You don't have to be a super GM to beat top engines..... Don Dailey Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:08 pm
                                                                                          Re: You don't have to be a super GM to beat top engines..... Don Dailey Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:29 pm
                                                                                          Re: You don't have to be a super GM to beat top engines..... Marek Kwiatkowski Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:44 pm
                                                                                          Re: Who play the ending better Houdini or Komodo without TB Jorge Pichard Mon Mar 26, 2012 11:05 pm
                                                                                          Re: Who play the ending better Houdini or Komodo without TB Don Dailey Tue Mar 27, 2012 3:57 am
                                                                                          Re: Who play the ending better Houdini or Komodo without TB Jorge Pichard Tue Mar 27, 2012 8:08 pm
                                                                                          Re: Certain engines still can not evaluate as good as a GM Jorge Pichard Tue Mar 27, 2012 10:36 pm
                                                                                    Re: Time to test Komodo with endgames positions............. Jorge Pichard Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:27 pm
                                                                                    Re: Time to test Komodo with endgames positions............. Maurizio Maglio Sun Mar 25, 2012 9:38 pm
                                                                        Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Don Dailey Sun Mar 25, 2012 2:34 pm
                              Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Seb Dragulic Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:49 pm
                                    Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Maurizio Maglio Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:53 pm
                                          Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Seb Dragulic Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:57 pm
                                                Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Maurizio Maglio Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:05 pm
                                                      Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Seb Dragulic Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:20 pm
                                                            Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Maurizio Maglio Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:27 pm
                                                                  Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Seb Dragulic Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:34 pm
                                    Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Don Dailey Sun Mar 25, 2012 12:20 am
                                          Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Seb Dragulic Sun Mar 25, 2012 12:26 am
                        Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Seb Dragulic Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:22 pm
                        Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Maurizio Maglio Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:22 pm
                        Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Terry McCracken Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:29 pm
      Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Mike Scheidl Sun Mar 25, 2012 2:58 am
            Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Jorge Pichard Sun Mar 25, 2012 3:04 am
                  Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Mike Scheidl Sun Mar 25, 2012 3:44 am
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