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Terry McCracken

Joined: 01 Aug 2007
Posts: 10782

Post subject: Re: Time to test Komodo with endgames positions.............    Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:45 am

Don wrote:
lech wrote:

Lesson 2:
It is possible to get this possition on a very high ply. It needs 20 additional depths to verify that it is a wrong choise.

[d] 8/8/4k3/8/3PK3/7p/7P/8 w - - 0 1

Ok, sorry I misunderstood the point you were making which is that this position can be seen near leaf nodes of a deep search and of course it would be evaluated incorrectly by most programs.

But I think you miss my point too. You guys keep presenting special cases that demonstrate something that we have known for years, that a static evaluation function can be unreliable and that zugzwang can be a problem. This does not prove that humans are better at endings.

Actually, I think you have something seriously wrong here. You assume that humans do not have to do any "thinking" to understand this position but that only computers do. But that is not correct.

Imagine showing a strong human a bunch of random positions on flash cards where they have to identify as quickly as possible whether the position is a win or a draw (or loss.) When this position arises it takes any human a brief amount of time to process the position in his brain. He knows that rook pawn draws and that the king is not in front of the pawn, but humans are slow and it takes perhaps half a second just for the position to fully impact the brain and be recognized, then he has to reason on these 2 facts and "see the light" and this is going to take at least a couple of seconds or more. He may even take another second or two to convince himself that the king can indeed make it to the f8 square in time although I think a super Grandmaster will know this at a glance.

So I checked this on Komodo and it only took 2.6 seconds before the score stabilized to a draw. We might quibble about how long it would take a Grandmaster to see, recognize, reason and score a position like this but I'll bet 2 or 3 seconds is a lower bound. In other words I'm not convinced that even this example designed to make computers look bad really does what you intended. They don't just "know" it's a draw, they still have to reason on the position and take a little bit of time.

However this is just one example, there are many more positions that are more complex than this to a human, but much simpler for a computer, for example little tactics that take a few ply but are non trivial - in which case Komodo would see, process, recognize and score in a tiny fraction of a second.

Humans do well in position with simple well known rules like the one you just presented but they cannot compete with computers any longer because it's now getting to the point where most of the "tough" cases are handled by sheer CPU power faster than a human can even glance at a position and do trivial reasoning on it.

Just being able to find positions where computers plays the wrong move is not the same as "proving" that humans play better.

You make a good argument but even I know this is a draw without any calculations. The two patterns are that obvious and seen instantly. The time is less or no more than a second. For a human that is about as instant as it gets.

Zugzwangs of course need to be remedied and some top players do read many many positions, even complex ones at a glance. Kasparov was shown an ending and looked confused as he thought the position was far too easy and when shown it modified he smiled as he had to think, a little.

Seeing him look at deep endings at a glance over breakfast, solving them virtually on the spot is quite unnerving to mere mortals!

A decade ago he was like a very fast supercomputer to the unaided eye.
_________________
Terry McCracken
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Jorge Pichard Sat Mar 24, 2012 3:24 pm
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Don Dailey Sat Mar 24, 2012 4:48 pm
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Norm Pollock Sat Mar 24, 2012 5:18 pm
Don Dailey Sat Mar 24, 2012 6:44 pm
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Rein Halbersma Sat Mar 24, 2012 7:00 pm
Jorge Pichard Sat Mar 24, 2012 10:21 pm
Lonnie Cook Sun Mar 25, 2012 11:40 am
Robert Houdart Sat Mar 24, 2012 7:18 pm
Maurizio Maglio Sat Mar 24, 2012 7:32 pm
Maurizio Maglio Sat Mar 24, 2012 7:45 pm
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Jorge Pichard Sun Mar 25, 2012 11:49 am
Ron Langeveld Sun Mar 25, 2012 12:44 pm
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Don Dailey Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:48 pm
Don Dailey Sun Mar 25, 2012 2:29 pm
Don Dailey Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:38 pm
George Speight Sun Mar 25, 2012 2:09 pm
Jorge Pichard Sun Mar 25, 2012 2:21 pm
Don Dailey Sun Mar 25, 2012 3:00 pm
Marek Kwiatkowski Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:09 pm
Don Dailey Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:20 pm
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Jorge Pichard Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:37 pm
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Terry McCracken Sun Mar 25, 2012 9:06 pm
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Jorge Pichard Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:11 am
Uri Zlatnik Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:33 am
Uri Zlatnik Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:34 am
Uri Zlatnik Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:34 am
Re: Time to test Komodo with endgames positions............. Terry McCracken Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:45 am
Jorge Pichard Mon Mar 26, 2012 3:22 am
Don Dailey Mon Mar 26, 2012 5:08 am
Don Dailey Mon Mar 26, 2012 1:50 pm
Jorge Pichard Mon Mar 26, 2012 4:06 pm
Don Dailey Mon Mar 26, 2012 4:34 pm
Don Dailey Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:34 pm
Don Dailey Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:39 pm
Marek Kwiatkowski Mon Mar 26, 2012 9:53 pm
Don Dailey Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:08 pm
Don Dailey Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:29 pm
Marek Kwiatkowski Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:44 pm
Jorge Pichard Mon Mar 26, 2012 11:05 pm
Don Dailey Tue Mar 27, 2012 3:57 am
Jorge Pichard Tue Mar 27, 2012 8:08 pm
Jorge Pichard Tue Mar 27, 2012 10:36 pm
Jorge Pichard Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:27 pm
Maurizio Maglio Sun Mar 25, 2012 9:38 pm
Don Dailey Sun Mar 25, 2012 2:34 pm
Seb Dragulic Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:49 pm
Maurizio Maglio Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:53 pm
Seb Dragulic Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:57 pm
Maurizio Maglio Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:05 pm
Seb Dragulic Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:20 pm
Maurizio Maglio Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:27 pm
Seb Dragulic Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:34 pm
Don Dailey Sun Mar 25, 2012 12:20 am
Seb Dragulic Sun Mar 25, 2012 12:26 am
Seb Dragulic Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:22 pm
Maurizio Maglio Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:22 pm
Terry McCracken Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:29 pm
Mike Scheidl Sun Mar 25, 2012 2:58 am
Jorge Pichard Sun Mar 25, 2012 3:04 am
Mike Scheidl Sun Mar 25, 2012 3:44 am

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