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Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top GMs
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Don Dailey



Joined: 29 Apr 2008
Posts: 4320
PostPost subject: Re: You don't have to be a super GM to beat top engines.....    Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 5:08 am Reply to topic Reply with quote
pichy wrote:
Terry McCracken wrote:
Don wrote:
lech wrote:

Lesson 2: Wink
It is possible to get this possition on a very high ply. It needs 20 additional depths to verify that it is a wrong choise.

[d] 8/8/4k3/8/3PK3/7p/7P/8 w - - 0 1
   ::    ::    ::    ::
::    ::    ::    ::    
   ::    :: BK ::    ::
::    ::    ::    ::    
   ::    WP WK ::    ::
::    ::    ::    :: BP
   ::    ::    ::    WP
::    ::    ::    ::    


Ok, sorry I misunderstood the point you were making which is that this position can be seen near leaf nodes of a deep search and of course it would be evaluated incorrectly by most programs.

But I think you miss my point too. You guys keep presenting special cases that demonstrate something that we have known for years, that a static evaluation function can be unreliable and that zugzwang can be a problem. This does not prove that humans are better at endings.

Actually, I think you have something seriously wrong here. You assume that humans do not have to do any "thinking" to understand this position but that only computers do. But that is not correct.

Imagine showing a strong human a bunch of random positions on flash cards where they have to identify as quickly as possible whether the position is a win or a draw (or loss.) When this position arises it takes any human a brief amount of time to process the position in his brain. He knows that rook pawn draws and that the king is not in front of the pawn, but humans are slow and it takes perhaps half a second just for the position to fully impact the brain and be recognized, then he has to reason on these 2 facts and "see the light" and this is going to take at least a couple of seconds or more. He may even take another second or two to convince himself that the king can indeed make it to the f8 square in time although I think a super Grandmaster will know this at a glance.

So I checked this on Komodo and it only took 2.6 seconds before the score stabilized to a draw. We might quibble about how long it would take a Grandmaster to see, recognize, reason and score a position like this but I'll bet 2 or 3 seconds is a lower bound. In other words I'm not convinced that even this example designed to make computers look bad really does what you intended. They don't just "know" it's a draw, they still have to reason on the position and take a little bit of time.

However this is just one example, there are many more positions that are more complex than this to a human, but much simpler for a computer, for example little tactics that take a few ply but are non trivial - in which case Komodo would see, process, recognize and score in a tiny fraction of a second.

Humans do well in position with simple well known rules like the one you just presented but they cannot compete with computers any longer because it's now getting to the point where most of the "tough" cases are handled by sheer CPU power faster than a human can even glance at a position and do trivial reasoning on it.

Just being able to find positions where computers plays the wrong move is not the same as "proving" that humans play better.


You make a good argument but even I know this is a draw without any calculations. The two patterns are that obvious and seen instantly. The time is less or no more than a second. For a human that is about as instant as it gets.

Zugzwangs of course need to be remedied and some top players do read many many positions, even complex ones at a glance. Kasparov was shown an ending and looked confused as he thought the position was far too easy and when shown it modified he smiled as he had to think, a little.

Seeing him look at deep endings at a glance over breakfast, solving them virtually on the spot is quite unnerving to mere mortals!

A decade ago he was like a very fast supercomputer to the unaided eye.


========================================================================================================================

I checked this position in youtube.com and realized that even a master like myself or used to be 19 years ago rated 2200, and since then have read several books on endings, plus I took a quick look at this position and the explanation and decided to play versus Komodo at 3 minutes per move using my AMD Athlon (tm) Duo Core Processor 4850e 4.50 GHz

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SgNPwe_7B0

This is the initial position:
[D]2b5/2k3p1/p1p2pBp/P2p4/1P1P4/5PP1/7P/4K3 w - - 0 1"
   :: BB ::    ::    ::
::    BK    ::    BP    
BP :: BP ::    BP WB BP
WP    :: BP ::    ::    
   WP    WP    ::    ::
::    ::    :: WP WP    
   ::    ::    ::    WP
::    ::    WK    ::    


You must be joking. That is a terrible position for black, white has a clear plan here that I think must be winning. This is how you prove that humans are superior in the endgame?

I'll bet if you play komodo vs komodo white will win every time.

Quote:



[Event "Pichy vs Komodo Ending"]
[Date "2012.03.25"]
[Round "?"]
[Black "Komodo3-64"]
[Result "*"]
[BlackElo "3050"]
[WhiteElo "2200"]
[TimeControl "0+180"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "2b5/2k3p1/p1p2pBp/P2p4/1P1P4/5PP1/7P/4K3 w - - 0 1"]
[WhiteType "human"]
[BlackType "program"]

1. g4 Kd6 2. Kf2 Ke7 3. Kg3 Kd7 4. Kh4 Kd8 5. Kh5 Ke7 6. Bd3 Kf7 7. Bf1 Bb7
8. Bd3 Bc8 9. h3 Ke7 10. Kg6 Kf8 11. Kh7 Kf7 12. Bg6+ Kf8 13. Kh8 Bd7 14.
f4 Be6 15. f5 Bd7 16. Bh5 c5 17. bxc5 Bc6 18. Bg6 Ba4 19. Bh7 h5 20. gxh5
Bd7 21. Bg6 Bc6 22. Kh7 Bb5 23. h6 gxh6 24. Kxh6 Bf1 25. h4 Bb5 26. Kh7 Bc6
27. h5 Ba4 {Black resigns} 28. h6 *

I don’t understand why Komodo made the bad move 16.Bh5 c5? I was expecting 16… Bc8, probably Komodo realized that
I was going to sacrifice my bishop by playing the novelty move Be8 forcing the King to take or I would had taken pawn c6 and the pawn d5 in the next two moves. or I touched some keyboard without realizing anyway Komodo if Komodo played the expected move Bc8, then I would had played Be8 and after Black king take my bishop White king take Kxg7 etc...


PS: After the game I analyzed it again and Komodo3 played the expected move 16.Bh5 Bc8
[D]5k1K/3b2p1/p1p2p1p/P2p1P1B/1P1P2P1/7P/8/8 b - - 2 16
   ::    ::    BK    WK
::    :: BB ::    BP    
BP :: BP ::    BP    BP
WP    :: BP :: WP :: WB
   WP    WP    :: WP ::
::    ::    ::    :: WP
   ::    ::    ::    ::
::    ::    ::    ::    


This is the final position when Komodo3-64 resigned
[D]5k2/7K/p4pBP/P1Pp1P2/b2P4/8/8/8 b - - 0 28
   ::    ::    BK    ::
::    ::    ::    :: WK
BP ::    ::    BP WB WP
WP    WP BP :: WP ::    
BB ::    WP    ::    ::
::    ::    ::    ::    
   ::    ::    ::    ::
::    ::    ::    ::    

_________________
"Your superior intellect is no match for our puny weapons." -Kang and Kodos
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Subject Author Date/Time
Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top GMs Jorge Pichard Sat Mar 24, 2012 3:24 pm
      Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Jon Dart Sat Mar 24, 2012 3:51 pm
            Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Jorge Pichard Sat Mar 24, 2012 4:10 pm
                  Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Jon Dart Sat Mar 24, 2012 4:33 pm
                  Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Don Dailey Sat Mar 24, 2012 4:48 pm
                        Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Jorge Pichard Sat Mar 24, 2012 4:59 pm
                              Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Norm Pollock Sat Mar 24, 2012 5:18 pm
                                    Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Don Dailey Sat Mar 24, 2012 6:44 pm
                              Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Don Dailey Sat Mar 24, 2012 6:27 pm
                                    Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Rein Halbersma Sat Mar 24, 2012 7:00 pm
                                    Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Jorge Pichard Sat Mar 24, 2012 10:21 pm
                        Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Lonnie Cook Sun Mar 25, 2012 11:40 am
      Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Robert Houdart Sat Mar 24, 2012 7:18 pm
            Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Maurizio Maglio Sat Mar 24, 2012 7:32 pm
                  Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Maurizio Maglio Sat Mar 24, 2012 7:45 pm
            Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Terry McCracken Sat Mar 24, 2012 7:56 pm
                  Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Robert Houdart Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:12 pm
                        Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Don Dailey Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:20 pm
                              Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Terry McCracken Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:27 pm
                                    Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Seb Dragulic Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:41 pm
                                          Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Terry McCracken Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:45 pm
                              Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Maurizio Maglio Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:44 pm
                                    Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Don Dailey Sun Mar 25, 2012 12:18 am
                                          Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Maurizio Maglio Sun Mar 25, 2012 7:48 am
                                          Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Jorge Pichard Sun Mar 25, 2012 11:49 am
                                          Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Ron Langeveld Sun Mar 25, 2012 12:44 pm
                                                Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Don Dailey Sun Mar 25, 2012 12:59 pm
                                                      Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top George Speight Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:23 pm
                                                            Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Jorge Pichard Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:32 pm
                                                                  Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Don Dailey Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:48 pm
                                                                        Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Don Dailey Sun Mar 25, 2012 2:29 pm
                                                            Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Don Dailey Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:38 pm
                                                                  Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top George Speight Sun Mar 25, 2012 2:09 pm
                                                                        Re: Time to test Komodo with endgames positions............. Jorge Pichard Sun Mar 25, 2012 2:21 pm
                                                                              Re: Time to test Komodo with endgames positions............. Don Dailey Sun Mar 25, 2012 3:00 pm
                                                                                    Re: Time to test Komodo with endgames positions............. Marek Kwiatkowski Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:09 pm
                                                                                          Re: Time to test Komodo with endgames positions............. Don Dailey Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:20 pm
                                                                                          Re: Time to test Komodo with endgames positions............. Marek Kwiatkowski Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:43 pm
                                                                                          Re: Time to test Komodo with endgames positions............. Jorge Pichard Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:37 pm
                                                                                          Re: Time to test Komodo with endgames positions............. Don Dailey Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:26 pm
                                                                                          Re: Time to test Komodo with endgames positions............. Marek Kwiatkowski Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:59 pm
                                                                                          Re: Time to test Komodo with endgames positions............. Terry McCracken Sun Mar 25, 2012 9:06 pm
                                                                                          Re: Time to test Komodo with endgames positions............. Marek Kwiatkowski Sun Mar 25, 2012 10:02 pm
                                                                                          Re: Time to test Komodo with endgames positions............. Don Dailey Sun Mar 25, 2012 10:44 pm
                                                                                          Re: Time to test Komodo with endgames positions............. Don Dailey Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:18 am
                                                                                          Re: Time to test Komodo with endgames positions............. Jorge Pichard Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:11 am
                                                                                          Re: Time to test Komodo with endgames positions............. Uri Zlatnik Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:33 am
                                                                                          Re: Time to test Komodo with endgames positions............. Uri Zlatnik Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:34 am
                                                                                          Re: Time to test Komodo with endgames positions............. Uri Zlatnik Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:34 am
                                                                                          Re: Time to test Komodo with endgames positions............. Terry McCracken Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:45 am
                                                                                          Re: You don't have to be a super GM to beat top engines..... Jorge Pichard Mon Mar 26, 2012 3:22 am
                                                                                          Re: You don't have to be a super GM to beat top engines..... Don Dailey Mon Mar 26, 2012 5:08 am
                                                                                          Re: You don't have to be a super GM to beat top engines..... Don Dailey Mon Mar 26, 2012 1:50 pm
                                                                                          Re: You don't have to be a super GM to beat top engines..... Jorge Pichard Mon Mar 26, 2012 4:06 pm
                                                                                          Re: You don't have to be a super GM to beat top engines..... Don Dailey Mon Mar 26, 2012 4:34 pm
                                                                                          Re: You don't have to be a super GM to beat top engines..... Don Dailey Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:34 pm
                                                                                          Re: You don't have to be a super GM to beat top engines..... Don Dailey Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:39 pm
                                                                                          Re: You don't have to be a super GM to beat top engines..... Marek Kwiatkowski Mon Mar 26, 2012 9:53 pm
                                                                                          Re: You don't have to be a super GM to beat top engines..... Don Dailey Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:08 pm
                                                                                          Re: You don't have to be a super GM to beat top engines..... Don Dailey Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:29 pm
                                                                                          Re: You don't have to be a super GM to beat top engines..... Marek Kwiatkowski Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:44 pm
                                                                                          Re: Who play the ending better Houdini or Komodo without TB Jorge Pichard Mon Mar 26, 2012 11:05 pm
                                                                                          Re: Who play the ending better Houdini or Komodo without TB Don Dailey Tue Mar 27, 2012 3:57 am
                                                                                          Re: Who play the ending better Houdini or Komodo without TB Jorge Pichard Tue Mar 27, 2012 8:08 pm
                                                                                          Re: Certain engines still can not evaluate as good as a GM Jorge Pichard Tue Mar 27, 2012 10:36 pm
                                                                                    Re: Time to test Komodo with endgames positions............. Jorge Pichard Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:27 pm
                                                                                    Re: Time to test Komodo with endgames positions............. Maurizio Maglio Sun Mar 25, 2012 9:38 pm
                                                                        Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Don Dailey Sun Mar 25, 2012 2:34 pm
                              Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Seb Dragulic Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:49 pm
                                    Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Maurizio Maglio Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:53 pm
                                          Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Seb Dragulic Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:57 pm
                                                Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Maurizio Maglio Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:05 pm
                                                      Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Seb Dragulic Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:20 pm
                                                            Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Maurizio Maglio Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:27 pm
                                                                  Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Seb Dragulic Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:34 pm
                                    Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Don Dailey Sun Mar 25, 2012 12:20 am
                                          Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Seb Dragulic Sun Mar 25, 2012 12:26 am
                        Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Seb Dragulic Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:22 pm
                        Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Maurizio Maglio Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:22 pm
                        Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Terry McCracken Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:29 pm
      Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Mike Scheidl Sun Mar 25, 2012 2:58 am
            Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Jorge Pichard Sun Mar 25, 2012 3:04 am
                  Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Mike Scheidl Sun Mar 25, 2012 3:44 am
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