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Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top GMs
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Jorge Pichard



Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 2557
PostPost subject: Re: Who play the ending better Houdini or Komodo without TB    Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 11:05 pm Reply to topic Reply with quote
Don wrote:
Don wrote:
pichy wrote:

Yes, this is a better position for white since the formation of the black pawns are on white squares on the Queen side it makes it much harder for black to defend both sides a better position for black but still with a small advantage for white would hac been this
one, and a top GM either Aonian or Kramnik can defend well both sides against any of the top 3 programs:
[D]2bk4/p1p3p1/3p1pBp/P7/1P1P4/5PP1/7P/4K3 w - - 2 1
   :: BB BK    ::    ::
BP    BP    ::    BP    
   ::    BP    BP WB BP
WP    ::    ::    ::    
   WP    WP    ::    ::
::    ::    :: WP WP    
   ::    ::    ::    WP
::    ::    WK    ::    


I have an update. On a deeper level believe it or not Houdini was not able to win this ending in one of the games - essentially it just refused to invade with it's king. For whatever reason Houdini is stuck on an evaluation of "32" which might be a draw score perhaps and cannot make progress. I don't know why but it's probably related to overly aggressive null move pruning or some search heuristic or possibly zugzwang because it reports several ply deeper but is not able to see anything.

But now withstanding the Houdini glitch I think I disagree with you in general about this. I don't believe any top player could avoid losing against Komodo from this position if you give Komodo white - I think this is a clear win for white.

I'm still curious about the Houdini glitch, there is still a very remote possibility that Houdini see's some kind of defense for black if he invades, so I'm going to run this one more time - giving Houdini black and a much longer time control than previously and I will look to see if there is some idea I missed.


I played this out once more letting Houdini defend at a very high level, taking basically all day to complete the game. Komodo played at a time control several times faster and still won using the same simple plan, so I am convinced that this is simply a win for white and there is no hidden defense. At least as far as my ability takes me (with help from Komodo and Houdini.)

Don


You are correct the position is a win for White since most of white pawns are further advanced than Black Pawns. I modified this position one last time, which should make the position dead draw, and depending on who moves first either White or Black should have a slightly advantage Wink

PS: Now lets see who play the ending better Houdini or Komodo without tablebase?

[D]2bk4/8/p4pBp/Pp4p1/1PpP4/5PP1/7P/4K3 w - - 0 1
   :: BB BK    ::    ::
::    ::    ::    ::    
BP ::    ::    BP WB BP
WP BP ::    ::    BP    
   WP BP WP    ::    ::
::    ::    :: WP WP    
   ::    ::    ::    WP
::    ::    WK    ::    


This is the analysis by Houdini 1.5a :

FEN: 2bk4/8/p4pBp/Pp4p1/1PpP4/5PP1/7P/4K3 w - - 0 1

Houdini_15_w32:
4/7 00:00 337 0 +0.02 Ke1d2 Kd8e7 Kd2c3 Ke7d6 Bg6e4
5/8 00:00 534 0 +0.02 Ke1d2 Kd8e7 Kd2c3 Ke7d6 Bg6e4
6/12 00:00 823 0 +0.06 Ke1d2 Kd8e7 Kd2c3 Ke7d6 Bg6e4 f6f5
7/12 00:00 1.448 0 -0.03 Ke1d2 Kd8e7 Kd2c3 Ke7d6 Bg6b1 f6f5 f3f4
8/12 00:00 2.088 0 0.00 Ke1d2 Kd8e7 Kd2c3 Ke7d6 g3g4 Bc8b7 Bg6e4 Bb7d5
9/15 00:00 4.710 314.000 -0.06 Ke1d2 Kd8e7 Kd2c3 Ke7d6 g3g4 Bc8b7 Bg6e4 Bb7d5 h2h3
10/15+ 00:00 7.105 61.000 -0.01 Ke1d2
10/15 00:00 8.338 69.000 0.00 Ke1d2 Kd8e7 Kd2c3 Ke7d6 g3g4 Bc8b7 Bg6e4 Bb7c6 h2h3 Bc6d5
11/17- 00:00 12.681 99.000 -0.05 Ke1d2 Kd8e7
11/24 00:00 27.699 199.000 -0.08 Ke1d2 Kd8e7 h2h4 g5xh4 g3xh4 Ke7d6 Kd2c3 f6f5 h4h5 Kd6d5 Bg6f7+ Bc8e6 Bf7xe6+ Kd5xe6
12/24+ 00:00 45.140 298.000 -0.03 Ke1d2
12/24 00:00 67.589 390.000 -0.04 Ke1d2 f6f5 Kd2c3 Kd8e7 h2h3 Ke7f6 Bg6h5 f5f4 g3xf4 Bc8xh3 f4xg5+ Kf6xg5 Bh5f7 Kg5f4 Bf7h5
13/24- 00:00 75.898 419.000 -0.08 Ke1d2 f6f5
13/24 00:00 117.051 576.000 -0.01 g3g4 Kd8c7 Ke1d2 Bc8d7 Bg6e4 Bd7c6 Kd2c3 Kc7d6 Kc3c2 Bc6d5 Kc2c3 Kd6c6 Kc3c2 Kc6d6 Kc2c3
14/24 00:00 143.282 654.000 0.00 g3g4 Kd8c7 Ke1d2 Bc8d7 Bg6e4 Bd7c6 Kd2c3 Kc7d6 Kc3c2 Bc6d5 Kc2c3 Bd5c6 Kc3c2
15/24 00:00 180.817 769.000 0.00 g3g4 Kd8c7 Ke1d2 Bc8d7 Bg6e4 Bd7c6 Kd2c3 Kc7d6 Kc3c2 Bc6d5 Kc2c3 Kd6c6 Kc3c2 Kc6d6 Kc2c3
16/25 00:00 245.433 933.000 0.00 g3g4 Kd8c7 Ke1d2 Bc8d7 Bg6e4 Bd7c6 Kd2c3 Kc7d6 Kc3c2 Bc6d5 Kc2c3 Kd6c6 Kc3c2 Kc6d6 Kc2c3
17/26 00:00 327.235 1.105.000 0.00 g3g4 Kd8c7 Ke1d2 Bc8d7 Bg6e4 Bd7c6 Kd2c3 Kc7d6 Kc3c2 Bc6d5 Kc2c3 Kd6c6 Kc3c2 Kc6d6 Kc2c3
18/30 00:00 471.444 1.335.000 0.00 g3g4 Kd8c7 Ke1d2 Bc8d7 Bg6e4 Bd7c6 Kd2c3 Kc7d6 Kc3c2 Bc6d5 Kc2c3 Kd6c6 Kc3c2 Kc6d6 Kc2c3
19/30 00:00 628.867 1.526.000 0.00 g3g4 Kd8c7 Ke1d2 Bc8d7 Bg6e4 Bd7c6 Kd2c3 Kc7d6 Kc3c2 Bc6d5 Kc2c3 Kd6c6 Kc3c2 Kc6d6 Kc2c3
20/30 00:00 948.034 1.819.000 0.00 g3g4 Kd8c7 Ke1d2 Bc8d7 Bg6e4 Bd7c6 Kd2c3 Kc7d6 Kc3c2 Bc6d5 Kc2c3 Kd6c6 Kc3c2 Kc6d6 Kc2c3
21/34 00:00 1.325.314 1.992.000 0.00 g3g4 Kd8c7 Ke1d2 Bc8d7 Bg6e4 Bd7c6 Kd2c3 Kc7d6 Kc3c2 Bc6d5 Kc2c3 Kd6c6 Kc3c2 Kc6d6 Kc2c3
22/35 00:00 1.894.664 2.182.000 0.00 g3g4 Kd8c7 Ke1d2 Bc8d7 Bg6e4 Bd7c6 Kd2c3 Kc7d6 Kc3c2 Bc6d5 Kc2c3 Kd6c6 Kc3c2 Kc6d6 Kc2c3
23/35 00:01 2.821.999 2.332.000 0.00 g3g4 Kd8c7 Ke1d2 Bc8d7 Bg6e4 Bd7c6 Kd2c3 Kc7d6 Kc3c2 Bc6d5 Kc2c3 Kd6c6 Kc3c2 Kc6d6 Kc2c3
24/38 00:01 4.178.661 2.476.000 0.00 g3g4 Kd8c7 Ke1d2 Bc8d7 Bg6e4 Bd7c6 Kd2c3 Kc7d6 Kc3c2 Bc6d5 Kc2c3 Kd6c6 Kc3c2 Kc6d6 Kc2c3
25/39 00:02 6.679.205 2.615.000 0.00 g3g4 Kd8c7 Ke1d2 Bc8d7 Bg6e4 Bd7c6 Kd2c3 Kc7d6 Kc3c2 Bc6d5 Kc2c3 Kd6c6 Kc3c2 Kc6d6 Kc2c3
26/40 00:04 11.722.390 2.740.000 0.00 g3g4 Kd8c7 Ke1d2 Bc8d7 Bg6e4 Bd7c6 Kd2c3 Kc7d6 Kc3c2 Bc6d5 Kc2c3 Kd6c6 Kc3c2 Kc6d6 Kc2c3
27/40 00:06 16.511.379 2.778.000 0.00 g3g4 Kd8c7 Ke1d2 Bc8d7 Bg6e4 Bd7c6 Kd2c3 Kc7d6 Kc3c2 Bc6d5 Kc2c3 Kd6c6 Kc3c2 Kc6d6 Kc2c3
28/49 00:08 23.646.088 2.801.000 0.00 g3g4 Kd8c7 Ke1d2 Bc8d7 Bg6e4 Bd7c6 Kd2c3 Kc7d6 Kc3c2 Bc6d5 Kc2c3 Kd6c6 Kc3c2 Kc6d6 Kc2c3
29/49 00:12 34.106.617 2.815.000 0.00 g3g4 Kd8c7 Ke1d2 Bc8d7 Bg6e4 Bd7c6 Kd2c3 Kc7d6 Kc3c2 Bc6d5 Kc2c3 Kd6c6 Kc3c2 Kc6d6 Kc2c3
30/49 00:19 54.627.522 2.806.000 0.00 g3g4 Kd8c7 Ke1d2 Bc8d7 Bg6e4 Bd7c6 Kd2c3 Kc7d6 Kc3c2 Bc6d5 Kc2c3 Kd6c6 Kc3c2 Kc6d6 Kc2c3
31/50 00:30 87.195.676 2.837.000 0.00 g3g4 Kd8c7 Ke1d2 Bc8d7 Bg6e4 Bd7c6 Kd2c3 Kc7d6 Kc3c2 Bc6d5 Kc2c3 Kd6c6 Kc3c2 Kc6d6 Kc2c3
32/50 00:48 135.795.208 2.791.000 0.00 g3g4 Kd8c7 Ke1d2 Bc8d7 Bg6e4 Bd7c6 Kd2c3 Kc7d6 Kc3c2 Bc6d5 Kc2c3 Kd6c6 Kc3c2 Kc6d6 Kc2c3
33/53 01:58 324.693.472 2.745.000 0.00 g3g4 Kd8c7 Ke1d2 Bc8d7 Bg6e4 Bd7c6 Kd2c3 Kc7d6 Kc3c2 Bc6d5 Kc2c3 Kd6c6 Kc3c2 Kc6d6 Kc2c3
34/54 02:34 434.209.905 2.803.000 0.00 g3g4 Kd8c7 Ke1d2 Bc8d7 Bg6e4 Bd7c6 Kd2c3 Kc7d6 Kc3c2 Bc6d5 Kc2c3 Kd6c6 Kc3c2 Kc6d6 Kc2c3
35/60 04:54 832.439.631 2.831.000 0.00 g3g4 Kd8c7 Ke1d2 Bc8d7 Bg6e4 Bd7c6 Kd2c3 Kc7d6 Kc3c2 Bc6d5 Kc2c3 Kd6c6 Kc3c2 Kc6d6 Kc2c3
36/60 08:22 1.427.804.581 2.842.000 0.00 g3g4 Kd8c7 Ke1d2 Bc8d7 Bg6e4 Bd7c6 Kd2c3 Kc7d6 Kc3c2 Bc6d5 Kc2c3 Kd6c6 Kc3c2 Kc6d6 Kc2c3
37/62 12:47 2.216.794,444 2.889.000 0.00 g3g4 Kd8c7 Ke1d2 Bc8d7 Bg6e4 Bd7c6 Kd2c3 Kc7d6 Kc3c2 Bc6d5 Kc2c3 Kd6c6 Kc3c2 Kc6d6 Kc2c3
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Subject Author Date/Time
Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top GMs Jorge Pichard Sat Mar 24, 2012 3:24 pm
      Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Jon Dart Sat Mar 24, 2012 3:51 pm
            Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Jorge Pichard Sat Mar 24, 2012 4:10 pm
                  Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Jon Dart Sat Mar 24, 2012 4:33 pm
                  Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Don Dailey Sat Mar 24, 2012 4:48 pm
                        Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Jorge Pichard Sat Mar 24, 2012 4:59 pm
                              Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Norm Pollock Sat Mar 24, 2012 5:18 pm
                                    Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Don Dailey Sat Mar 24, 2012 6:44 pm
                              Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Don Dailey Sat Mar 24, 2012 6:27 pm
                                    Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Rein Halbersma Sat Mar 24, 2012 7:00 pm
                                    Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Jorge Pichard Sat Mar 24, 2012 10:21 pm
                        Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Lonnie Cook Sun Mar 25, 2012 11:40 am
      Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Robert Houdart Sat Mar 24, 2012 7:18 pm
            Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Maurizio Maglio Sat Mar 24, 2012 7:32 pm
                  Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Maurizio Maglio Sat Mar 24, 2012 7:45 pm
            Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Terry McCracken Sat Mar 24, 2012 7:56 pm
                  Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Robert Houdart Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:12 pm
                        Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Don Dailey Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:20 pm
                              Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Terry McCracken Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:27 pm
                                    Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Seb Dragulic Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:41 pm
                                          Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Terry McCracken Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:45 pm
                              Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Maurizio Maglio Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:44 pm
                                    Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Don Dailey Sun Mar 25, 2012 12:18 am
                                          Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Maurizio Maglio Sun Mar 25, 2012 7:48 am
                                          Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Jorge Pichard Sun Mar 25, 2012 11:49 am
                                          Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Ron Langeveld Sun Mar 25, 2012 12:44 pm
                                                Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Don Dailey Sun Mar 25, 2012 12:59 pm
                                                      Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top George Speight Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:23 pm
                                                            Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Jorge Pichard Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:32 pm
                                                                  Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Don Dailey Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:48 pm
                                                                        Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Don Dailey Sun Mar 25, 2012 2:29 pm
                                                            Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Don Dailey Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:38 pm
                                                                  Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top George Speight Sun Mar 25, 2012 2:09 pm
                                                                        Re: Time to test Komodo with endgames positions............. Jorge Pichard Sun Mar 25, 2012 2:21 pm
                                                                              Re: Time to test Komodo with endgames positions............. Don Dailey Sun Mar 25, 2012 3:00 pm
                                                                                    Re: Time to test Komodo with endgames positions............. Marek Kwiatkowski Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:09 pm
                                                                                          Re: Time to test Komodo with endgames positions............. Don Dailey Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:20 pm
                                                                                          Re: Time to test Komodo with endgames positions............. Marek Kwiatkowski Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:43 pm
                                                                                          Re: Time to test Komodo with endgames positions............. Jorge Pichard Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:37 pm
                                                                                          Re: Time to test Komodo with endgames positions............. Don Dailey Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:26 pm
                                                                                          Re: Time to test Komodo with endgames positions............. Marek Kwiatkowski Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:59 pm
                                                                                          Re: Time to test Komodo with endgames positions............. Terry McCracken Sun Mar 25, 2012 9:06 pm
                                                                                          Re: Time to test Komodo with endgames positions............. Marek Kwiatkowski Sun Mar 25, 2012 10:02 pm
                                                                                          Re: Time to test Komodo with endgames positions............. Don Dailey Sun Mar 25, 2012 10:44 pm
                                                                                          Re: Time to test Komodo with endgames positions............. Don Dailey Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:18 am
                                                                                          Re: Time to test Komodo with endgames positions............. Jorge Pichard Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:11 am
                                                                                          Re: Time to test Komodo with endgames positions............. Uri Zlatnik Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:33 am
                                                                                          Re: Time to test Komodo with endgames positions............. Uri Zlatnik Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:34 am
                                                                                          Re: Time to test Komodo with endgames positions............. Uri Zlatnik Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:34 am
                                                                                          Re: Time to test Komodo with endgames positions............. Terry McCracken Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:45 am
                                                                                          Re: You don't have to be a super GM to beat top engines..... Jorge Pichard Mon Mar 26, 2012 3:22 am
                                                                                          Re: You don't have to be a super GM to beat top engines..... Don Dailey Mon Mar 26, 2012 5:08 am
                                                                                          Re: You don't have to be a super GM to beat top engines..... Don Dailey Mon Mar 26, 2012 1:50 pm
                                                                                          Re: You don't have to be a super GM to beat top engines..... Jorge Pichard Mon Mar 26, 2012 4:06 pm
                                                                                          Re: You don't have to be a super GM to beat top engines..... Don Dailey Mon Mar 26, 2012 4:34 pm
                                                                                          Re: You don't have to be a super GM to beat top engines..... Don Dailey Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:34 pm
                                                                                          Re: You don't have to be a super GM to beat top engines..... Don Dailey Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:39 pm
                                                                                          Re: You don't have to be a super GM to beat top engines..... Marek Kwiatkowski Mon Mar 26, 2012 9:53 pm
                                                                                          Re: You don't have to be a super GM to beat top engines..... Don Dailey Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:08 pm
                                                                                          Re: You don't have to be a super GM to beat top engines..... Don Dailey Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:29 pm
                                                                                          Re: You don't have to be a super GM to beat top engines..... Marek Kwiatkowski Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:44 pm
                                                                                          Re: Who play the ending better Houdini or Komodo without TB Jorge Pichard Mon Mar 26, 2012 11:05 pm
                                                                                          Re: Who play the ending better Houdini or Komodo without TB Don Dailey Tue Mar 27, 2012 3:57 am
                                                                                          Re: Who play the ending better Houdini or Komodo without TB Jorge Pichard Tue Mar 27, 2012 8:08 pm
                                                                                          Re: Certain engines still can not evaluate as good as a GM Jorge Pichard Tue Mar 27, 2012 10:36 pm
                                                                                    Re: Time to test Komodo with endgames positions............. Jorge Pichard Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:27 pm
                                                                                    Re: Time to test Komodo with endgames positions............. Maurizio Maglio Sun Mar 25, 2012 9:38 pm
                                                                        Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Don Dailey Sun Mar 25, 2012 2:34 pm
                              Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Seb Dragulic Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:49 pm
                                    Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Maurizio Maglio Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:53 pm
                                          Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Seb Dragulic Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:57 pm
                                                Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Maurizio Maglio Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:05 pm
                                                      Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Seb Dragulic Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:20 pm
                                                            Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Maurizio Maglio Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:27 pm
                                                                  Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Seb Dragulic Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:34 pm
                                    Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Don Dailey Sun Mar 25, 2012 12:20 am
                                          Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Seb Dragulic Sun Mar 25, 2012 12:26 am
                        Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Seb Dragulic Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:22 pm
                        Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Maurizio Maglio Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:22 pm
                        Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Terry McCracken Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:29 pm
      Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Mike Scheidl Sun Mar 25, 2012 2:58 am
            Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Jorge Pichard Sun Mar 25, 2012 3:04 am
                  Re: Top engines without tablebases don't play as good as top Mike Scheidl Sun Mar 25, 2012 3:44 am
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