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When does a cut-node became an all-node?
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Steve Maughan



Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 486
Location: Florida, USA
PostPost subject: Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node?    Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:59 pm Reply to topic Reply with quote
Hi Larry,

lkaufman wrote:
snip...
So for me it is a very puzzling question of why these huge distinctions appear to work so well in the above named programs but not in Stockfish or (to any important degree) Komodo. Anyone want to venture a guess?


I think it's all to do with local optimums.

If we think of writing a chess program as an optimization solution there are bazillions of dimension. Each author will have their own preferences as to which path they should pursue. Maybe they try a basic piece-square evaluation and then add null move and then hash tables. At each point they will test different configurations of the element they are optimizing until they find something which they are happy with. Virtually all elements of the program interact with each other (i.e. the elements are not orthogonal); so as the program is improved it becomes a well-tuned system, where no small individual change improves the playing strength, However, if we could look across the optimization valley we could possibly see another mountain much higher than the one we're on. But to get to it require large adjustments of multiple elements of the engine.

I don't think you'll ever completely get around this problem. However, maybe one possible way to alleviate the problem is to tune different aspects of the program at the same time. For example instead of just tuning null move, also tune the passed pawn code. So you'd maybe have a pool of six candidate engines - three null move tuned and three passed pawn tuned. You'd then evaluate any improvements in on a more holistic basis.

Just my 2 cents,

Steve
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Subject Author Date/Time
When does a cut-node became an all-node? Alcides Schulz Tue Mar 27, 2012 11:55 am
      Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Vincent Diepeveen Tue Mar 27, 2012 12:37 pm
      Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Lucas Braesch Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:03 pm
            Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Edmund Moshammer Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:24 pm
                  Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Vincent Diepeveen Tue Mar 27, 2012 4:52 pm
            Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Thomas Petzke Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:28 pm
      Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Larry Kaufman Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:46 pm
            Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Alcides Schulz Tue Mar 27, 2012 2:03 pm
            Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Thomas Petzke Tue Mar 27, 2012 2:42 pm
            Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Vincent Diepeveen Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:11 pm
                  Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Larry Kaufman Tue Mar 27, 2012 6:15 pm
                        Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Vincent Diepeveen Tue Mar 27, 2012 6:22 pm
                              Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Larry Kaufman Tue Mar 27, 2012 6:31 pm
                                    Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Vincent Diepeveen Tue Mar 27, 2012 6:43 pm
                                          Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Larry Kaufman Tue Mar 27, 2012 7:17 pm
                                                Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Vincent Diepeveen Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:00 am
                                                      Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Larry Kaufman Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:08 pm
                                                            Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Vincent Diepeveen Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:07 pm
                                                                  Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Larry Kaufman Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:55 pm
                                                                        Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Vincent Diepeveen Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:33 pm
                                                                              Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Larry Kaufman Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:16 pm
                                                                                    Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Vincent Diepeveen Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:37 pm
                                                                                          Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Ed Schroder Thu Mar 29, 2012 3:22 pm
                                                                        Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Vincent Diepeveen Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:56 pm
                                                                              Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Larry Kaufman Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:26 pm
                                                                                    Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Vincent Diepeveen Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:59 pm
                                                                                          Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Vincent Diepeveen Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:02 pm
                                                                                          Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Larry Kaufman Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:46 pm
                                                      Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Ricardo Barreira Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:57 pm
                                                            Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Vincent Diepeveen Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:22 pm
                                                                  Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Ricardo Barreira Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:38 am
                                                                        Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Vincent Diepeveen Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:45 am
                              Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Marco Costalba Tue Mar 27, 2012 6:37 pm
            Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Robert Hyatt Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:19 pm
                  Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Vincent Diepeveen Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:35 pm
            Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Steve Maughan Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:59 pm
      Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Robert Hyatt Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:12 pm
            Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Alcides Schulz Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:41 pm
                  Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Robert Hyatt Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:01 pm
                        Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Larry Kaufman Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:31 pm
                              Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Daniel Shawul Thu Mar 29, 2012 12:28 am
                                    Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Larry Kaufman Thu Mar 29, 2012 1:51 am
                                          Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Sam Hamilton Thu Mar 29, 2012 2:05 am
                                                Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Larry Kaufman Thu Mar 29, 2012 2:37 am
                                                      Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Sam Hamilton Thu Mar 29, 2012 2:56 am
                                                Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Vincent Diepeveen Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:36 am
                                                      Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Ed Schroder Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:01 pm
                                          Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Daniel Shawul Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:53 am
                                                Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Larry Kaufman Thu Mar 29, 2012 2:24 pm
                                                      Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Daniel Shawul Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:04 pm
                                                            Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Daniel Shawul Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:27 pm
                                                                  Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Larry Kaufman Thu Mar 29, 2012 5:49 pm
                                                                        Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Daniel Shawul Thu Mar 29, 2012 7:18 pm
                                                            Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Larry Kaufman Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:28 pm
                                                                  Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Daniel Shawul Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:52 pm
                                                                        Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Larry Kaufman Thu Mar 29, 2012 5:58 pm
                                                                              Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Daniel Shawul Thu Mar 29, 2012 7:13 pm
                                                                                    Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Karlo Bala Jr. Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:39 pm
                                                                                          Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Daniel Shawul Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:02 pm
                                                                                          Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Karlo Bala Jr. Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:23 pm
                                                                                          Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Daniel Shawul Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:45 pm
                                                                                          Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Vincent Diepeveen Fri Mar 30, 2012 12:26 am
                              Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Robert Hyatt Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:34 pm
                        Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Alcides Schulz Thu Mar 29, 2012 3:05 am
                        Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Thomas Petzke Thu Mar 29, 2012 6:53 am
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