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When does a cut-node became an all-node?
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Larry Kaufman



Joined: 10 Jan 2010
Posts: 1229
Location: Maryland USA
PostPost subject: Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node?    Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 1:51 am Reply to topic Reply with quote
Daniel Shawul wrote:
I haven't followed the discussion but I agree it don't make much difference to make distinction between CUT/ALL. If at a possible CUT node you don't get a cut off within the first 3 moves, then it is 99% likely that was infact an ALL node. So to benefit from CUT/ALL distinction you have to make pruning decisions within those 3 moves. Most had n_moves >= 3 for LMR which makes this rare. Infact switching the node type after searching 1 move may also be very safe. A typical example is YBW algorithm that does parallel search after searching exactly 1 move. ALL nodes are good for YBW. Another YBW variants with CUT/ALL node distinction improved it only slightly (about <= 5% from memory?) according to original inventors. PV/non-PV is a gamble where you try to have a longer PV compared to other parts of the tree. Do more extensions, less reductions at PVs etc.. Don't be surprised if that didn't work for some! You are usually comparing a certain class of engines ( engines close to Komodo) which may all be exploiting a certain optima. The rest could be working on another hill! See the discussion on singular extensions some time back that supposedly gave 40 elo to some, but actually didn't for others...


I'm not so sure that your reasoning is correct. Just because you are (let's say) on the 7th move at an expected CUT node which will probably turn out to be an ALL node, it does not follow that the previous node (or the one before that) was mis-typed; the next move tried on the previous ply may produce the cut. So it may well be that reducing the 7th move more (or less) at a CUT node than at an ALL node is still justified based on the earlier node type. At least, if this is not so, then Rybka, Ippo, Ivanhoe, Houdini, and Critter are all doing something silly. I don't believe this.
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Subject Author Date/Time
When does a cut-node became an all-node? Alcides Schulz Tue Mar 27, 2012 11:55 am
      Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Vincent Diepeveen Tue Mar 27, 2012 12:37 pm
      Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Lucas Braesch Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:03 pm
            Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Edmund Moshammer Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:24 pm
                  Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Vincent Diepeveen Tue Mar 27, 2012 4:52 pm
            Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Thomas Petzke Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:28 pm
      Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Larry Kaufman Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:46 pm
            Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Alcides Schulz Tue Mar 27, 2012 2:03 pm
            Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Thomas Petzke Tue Mar 27, 2012 2:42 pm
            Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Vincent Diepeveen Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:11 pm
                  Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Larry Kaufman Tue Mar 27, 2012 6:15 pm
                        Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Vincent Diepeveen Tue Mar 27, 2012 6:22 pm
                              Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Larry Kaufman Tue Mar 27, 2012 6:31 pm
                                    Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Vincent Diepeveen Tue Mar 27, 2012 6:43 pm
                                          Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Larry Kaufman Tue Mar 27, 2012 7:17 pm
                                                Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Vincent Diepeveen Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:00 am
                                                      Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Larry Kaufman Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:08 pm
                                                            Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Vincent Diepeveen Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:07 pm
                                                                  Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Larry Kaufman Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:55 pm
                                                                        Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Vincent Diepeveen Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:33 pm
                                                                              Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Larry Kaufman Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:16 pm
                                                                                    Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Vincent Diepeveen Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:37 pm
                                                                                          Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Ed Schroder Thu Mar 29, 2012 3:22 pm
                                                                        Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Vincent Diepeveen Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:56 pm
                                                                              Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Larry Kaufman Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:26 pm
                                                                                    Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Vincent Diepeveen Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:59 pm
                                                                                          Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Vincent Diepeveen Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:02 pm
                                                                                          Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Larry Kaufman Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:46 pm
                                                      Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Ricardo Barreira Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:57 pm
                                                            Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Vincent Diepeveen Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:22 pm
                                                                  Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Ricardo Barreira Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:38 am
                                                                        Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Vincent Diepeveen Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:45 am
                              Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Marco Costalba Tue Mar 27, 2012 6:37 pm
            Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Robert Hyatt Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:19 pm
                  Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Vincent Diepeveen Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:35 pm
            Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Steve Maughan Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:59 pm
      Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Robert Hyatt Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:12 pm
            Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Alcides Schulz Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:41 pm
                  Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Robert Hyatt Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:01 pm
                        Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Larry Kaufman Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:31 pm
                              Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Daniel Shawul Thu Mar 29, 2012 12:28 am
                                    Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Larry Kaufman Thu Mar 29, 2012 1:51 am
                                          Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Sam Hamilton Thu Mar 29, 2012 2:05 am
                                                Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Larry Kaufman Thu Mar 29, 2012 2:37 am
                                                      Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Sam Hamilton Thu Mar 29, 2012 2:56 am
                                                Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Vincent Diepeveen Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:36 am
                                                      Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Ed Schroder Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:01 pm
                                          Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Daniel Shawul Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:53 am
                                                Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Larry Kaufman Thu Mar 29, 2012 2:24 pm
                                                      Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Daniel Shawul Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:04 pm
                                                            Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Daniel Shawul Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:27 pm
                                                                  Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Larry Kaufman Thu Mar 29, 2012 5:49 pm
                                                                        Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Daniel Shawul Thu Mar 29, 2012 7:18 pm
                                                            Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Larry Kaufman Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:28 pm
                                                                  Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Daniel Shawul Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:52 pm
                                                                        Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Larry Kaufman Thu Mar 29, 2012 5:58 pm
                                                                              Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Daniel Shawul Thu Mar 29, 2012 7:13 pm
                                                                                    Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Karlo Bala Jr. Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:39 pm
                                                                                          Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Daniel Shawul Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:02 pm
                                                                                          Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Karlo Bala Jr. Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:23 pm
                                                                                          Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Daniel Shawul Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:45 pm
                                                                                          Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Vincent Diepeveen Fri Mar 30, 2012 12:26 am
                              Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Robert Hyatt Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:34 pm
                        Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Alcides Schulz Thu Mar 29, 2012 3:05 am
                        Re: When does a cut-node became an all-node? Thomas Petzke Thu Mar 29, 2012 6:53 am
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