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We should reconsider the value of the Queen.................
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Jorge Pichard



Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 2559
PostPost subject: Re: Here is my ending game Vs Komodo....................    Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 10:36 pm Reply to topic Reply with quote
Sven Schüle wrote:
pichy wrote:
Guenther wrote:
Each and every position you showed so far is either a 5 or 6men endgame.
I guess you have recently discovered them, this is fine but bad for a discussion about Q values.

Okay here is another fine example where the Queen is not that powerful [...]

Again, as I already wrote: all your examples are 100% "tactical" (see below). I'd propose to continue with examples where the "static evaluation" aspect is more important than search, tactics, or even TB lookup.

These were your examples so far:

1) 8/8/8/3kb3/3r4/3KQ3/8/8 w - - 0 1
Tablebase draw

2) 8/8/8/3kn3/3r4/2QK4/8/8 w - - 0 1
Unreachable from legal games (check by rook + knight at the same time).
If it were reachable: a tablebase draw

3) 4k3/5r2/8/8/8/8/3P2Q1/1r2K3 w - - 0 1
Tablebase draw

4) 3k4/2rr4/8/8/5Q2/8/8/3K4 w - - 0 1
Tablebase draw

5) 6r1/6rk/8/8/8/8/8/Q6K b - - 14 1
Forced mate in 6 for black, easy to see e.g. after 1...Rh8

6) 8/5Q2/8/8/1k6/b1n5/8/K7 b - - 14 1
Tablebase draw

Maybe you find a good example with Q + some pawns vs. RB + same number of pawns where you can explain your idea?

Here is a great example and I decided to played it versus Komodo, I was playing White:

[Event "Queen vs Bishop+Rook"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2012.04.08"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Pichy"]
[Black "Komodo3-32"]
[Result "1-0"]
[BlackElo "3080"]
[Time "18:17:34"]
[WhiteElo "2200"]
[TimeControl "0+20"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "6R1/8/2pB3k/2P4p/5p1q/5P2/4P1K1/8 w - - 0 1"]
[Termination "unterminated"]
[PlyCount "26"]
[WhiteType "Pichy"]
[BlackType "program"]

[D]6R1/8/2pB3k/2P4p/5p1q/5P2/4P1K1/8 w - - 0 1
   ::    ::    :: WR ::
::    ::    ::    ::    
   :: BP WB    ::    BK
::    WP    ::    :: BP
   ::    ::    BP    BQ
::    ::    :: WP ::    
   ::    :: WP :: WK ::
::    ::    ::    ::    


1. Bf8+ Kh7 2. Rg7+ Kh8 3. Be7 Qe1 4. Bf6 Qxe2+ 5. Kh1 Qc4 6. Ba1 h4 7. Bf6 h3 8. Ba1 h2 9. Bf6 Qe6 10. Bd4 Qh6 11. Rg2+ Kh7 12. Rxh2 Kg6 13. Rxh6+ Kxh6 *

And after this position there is no need to continue since White has an easy win.
[D]8/8/2p4k/2P5/3B1p2/5P2/8/7K w - - 0 14
   ::    ::    ::    ::
::    ::    ::    ::    
   :: BP ::    ::    BK
::    WP    ::    ::    
   ::    WB    BP    ::
::    ::    :: WP ::    
   ::    ::    ::    ::
::    ::    ::    :: WK


Please note also, there have been thorough investigations based on many real games on that topic, e.g. by Larry Kaufman, which have been followed and used by quite some people since then. Furthermore, you stated that the value of a queen were "fixed over the whole game", this is not true, many engines use the well-known opening-endgame interpolation technique where the actual piece values depend on the game stage.

Sven
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Subject Author Date/Time
We should reconsider the value of the Queen................. Jorge Pichard Fri Apr 06, 2012 1:17 pm
      Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. H.G.Muller Fri Apr 06, 2012 1:29 pm
            Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. Jorge Pichard Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:32 pm
                  Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. H.G.Muller Fri Apr 06, 2012 4:35 pm
                        Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. Jorge Pichard Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:10 pm
                  Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. S.Taylor Sun Apr 08, 2012 9:53 pm
      Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. Graham Banks Fri Apr 06, 2012 6:10 pm
            Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. Jorge Pichard Fri Apr 06, 2012 7:40 pm
            Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. Lucas Braesch Sat Apr 07, 2012 2:06 am
                  Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. Jorge Pichard Sat Apr 07, 2012 2:30 am
                        Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. André Lopez Sat Apr 07, 2012 3:09 am
                              Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. Terry McCracken Sat Apr 07, 2012 3:15 am
                              Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. Jorge Pichard Sat Apr 07, 2012 5:31 am
                                    Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. Terry McCracken Sat Apr 07, 2012 4:01 pm
                              Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. Matthew R. Brades Sat Apr 07, 2012 8:28 am
                                    Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. Jorge Pichard Sat Apr 07, 2012 10:06 am
                                          Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. Jorge Pichard Sat Apr 07, 2012 10:31 am
                                                Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. Jorge Pichard Sat Apr 07, 2012 11:34 am
                                                      Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. Guenther Simon Sat Apr 07, 2012 11:45 am
                                                            Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. Jorge Pichard Sat Apr 07, 2012 1:05 pm
                              Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. Sven Schüle Sat Apr 07, 2012 4:39 pm
                                    Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. Jorge Pichard Sat Apr 07, 2012 5:50 pm
                                          Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. Sven Schüle Sat Apr 07, 2012 11:26 pm
                                                Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. Jorge Pichard Sun Apr 08, 2012 12:37 am
                                                      Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. Ronald de Man Sun Apr 08, 2012 1:14 am
                                                            Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. Jorge Pichard Sun Apr 08, 2012 1:50 am
                                                                  Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. Ronald de Man Sun Apr 08, 2012 2:50 am
                                                                        Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. Jorge Pichard Sun Apr 08, 2012 4:51 am
                                          Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. Adam Hair Sun Apr 08, 2012 1:28 pm
                                                Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. Jorge Pichard Sun Apr 08, 2012 2:47 pm
                                                      Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. Jorge Pichard Sun Apr 08, 2012 3:24 pm
                                                            Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. Guenther Simon Sun Apr 08, 2012 4:08 pm
                                                                  Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. Jorge Pichard Sun Apr 08, 2012 5:20 pm
                                                                  Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. Jorge Pichard Sun Apr 08, 2012 7:40 pm
                                                                        Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. Sven Schüle Sun Apr 08, 2012 9:35 pm
                                                                              Re: Here is my ending game Vs Komodo.................... Jorge Pichard Sun Apr 08, 2012 10:36 pm
                                                                                    Re: Here is my ending game Vs Komodo.................... Sven Schüle Sun Apr 08, 2012 11:30 pm
                                                                                          Re: Here is my ending game Vs Komodo.................... Jorge Pichard Sun Apr 08, 2012 11:42 pm
                                                      Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. Adam Hair Mon Apr 09, 2012 12:26 am
                                                            Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. Jorge Pichard Mon Apr 09, 2012 4:46 pm
                              Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. Vincent Diepeveen Sat Apr 07, 2012 4:56 pm
                                    Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. H.G.Muller Sat Apr 07, 2012 5:32 pm
                                    Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. Jorge Pichard Sat Apr 07, 2012 6:04 pm
                              Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. Maurizio Maglio Sat Apr 07, 2012 9:55 pm
                                    Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. Jimmy Huggins Sat Apr 07, 2012 10:12 pm
                                          Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. Jorge Pichard Sat Apr 07, 2012 11:03 pm
                                    Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. André Lopez Sun Apr 08, 2012 12:40 am
      Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. Richard Sutherland Sat Apr 07, 2012 6:47 pm
            Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. Jorge Pichard Sat Apr 07, 2012 9:08 pm
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