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We should reconsider the value of the Queen.................
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Sven Schüle



Joined: 15 May 2008
Posts: 2275
Location: Berlin, Germany
PostPost subject: Re: Here is my ending game Vs Komodo....................    Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 11:30 pm Reply to topic Reply with quote
pichy wrote:
Here is a great example and I decided to played it versus Komodo, I was playing White:

[Event "Queen vs Bishop+Rook"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2012.04.08"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Pichy"]
[Black "Komodo3-32"]
[Result "1-0"]
[BlackElo "3080"]
[Time "18:17:34"]
[WhiteElo "2200"]
[TimeControl "0+20"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "6R1/8/2pB3k/2P4p/5p1q/5P2/4P1K1/8 w - - 0 1"]
[Termination "unterminated"]
[PlyCount "26"]
[WhiteType "Pichy"]
[BlackType "program"]

[D]6R1/8/2pB3k/2P4p/5p1q/5P2/4P1K1/8 w - - 0 1
   ::    ::    :: WR ::
::    ::    ::    ::    
   :: BP WB    ::    BK
::    WP    ::    :: BP
   ::    ::    BP    BQ
::    ::    :: WP ::    
   ::    :: WP :: WK ::
::    ::    ::    ::    


1. Bf8+ Kh7 2. Rg7+ Kh8 3. Be7 Qe1 4. Bf6 Qxe2+ 5. Kh1 Qc4 6. Ba1 h4 7. Bf6 h3 8. Ba1 h2 9. Bf6 Qe6 10. Bd4 Qh6 11. Rg2+ Kh7 12. Rxh2 Kg6 13. Rxh6+ Kxh6 *

O.k., this example might look better but it is still one of those 0.0x% where the exact value of the queen does not matter much due to "short-term" tactical issues (though not so short-term here considering the number of plies until the black queen is finally lost). Here these issues are caused by the extremely weak position of the black king into which black is being forced tactically with the first four white moves.

You are presenting a nice endgame study where the solution typically deviates from what you expect as a normal outcome for the vast majority of cases. With the given material of QPPP vs RBPPP and given typical piece values of Q=9.75, R=5.0, B=3.25 you get an advantage of +1.5 pawns for black. Without any further positional scoring the overall evaluation would be right within the draw margin for positions with equal number of pawns, so we would expect a draw, albeit with some black advantage. But in the given position the king safety is extremely bad for black, as stated above, so even a static evaluation would show at least a small advantage for black.

Queens can be stronger than rook + bishop, though, in positions with this kind of material, for instance if
- their own king is safe,
- rook and bishop are not cooperating well, and/or
- the rook/bishop side has several weak points that can be attacked simultaneously be the queen, showing the main strength of a queen which is its ability to act at many places on the board "at the same time".

In the example you gave above all of this is not the case. But it is not a property of the queen that leads to a white win, instead mainly the position of the black king together with the special case of white being able to enforce the Bf6/Rg7/Kh8 position is responsible. By the way, even evaluating the queen as, say, only 7.0 would not help to find the white win early based on static evaluation, it is necessary to see the forced tactical line where black loses its queen due to discovered check.

I still don't see why evaluating the queen as only 8.5 in the endgame should have any value for more general cases.

Sven
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Subject Author Date/Time
We should reconsider the value of the Queen................. Jorge Pichard Fri Apr 06, 2012 1:17 pm
      Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. H.G.Muller Fri Apr 06, 2012 1:29 pm
            Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. Jorge Pichard Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:32 pm
                  Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. H.G.Muller Fri Apr 06, 2012 4:35 pm
                        Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. Jorge Pichard Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:10 pm
                  Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. S.Taylor Sun Apr 08, 2012 9:53 pm
      Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. Graham Banks Fri Apr 06, 2012 6:10 pm
            Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. Jorge Pichard Fri Apr 06, 2012 7:40 pm
            Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. Lucas Braesch Sat Apr 07, 2012 2:06 am
                  Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. Jorge Pichard Sat Apr 07, 2012 2:30 am
                        Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. André Lopez Sat Apr 07, 2012 3:09 am
                              Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. Terry McCracken Sat Apr 07, 2012 3:15 am
                              Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. Jorge Pichard Sat Apr 07, 2012 5:31 am
                                    Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. Terry McCracken Sat Apr 07, 2012 4:01 pm
                              Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. Matthew R. Brades Sat Apr 07, 2012 8:28 am
                                    Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. Jorge Pichard Sat Apr 07, 2012 10:06 am
                                          Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. Jorge Pichard Sat Apr 07, 2012 10:31 am
                                                Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. Jorge Pichard Sat Apr 07, 2012 11:34 am
                                                      Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. Guenther Simon Sat Apr 07, 2012 11:45 am
                                                            Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. Jorge Pichard Sat Apr 07, 2012 1:05 pm
                              Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. Sven Schüle Sat Apr 07, 2012 4:39 pm
                                    Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. Jorge Pichard Sat Apr 07, 2012 5:50 pm
                                          Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. Sven Schüle Sat Apr 07, 2012 11:26 pm
                                                Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. Jorge Pichard Sun Apr 08, 2012 12:37 am
                                                      Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. Ronald de Man Sun Apr 08, 2012 1:14 am
                                                            Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. Jorge Pichard Sun Apr 08, 2012 1:50 am
                                                                  Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. Ronald de Man Sun Apr 08, 2012 2:50 am
                                                                        Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. Jorge Pichard Sun Apr 08, 2012 4:51 am
                                          Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. Adam Hair Sun Apr 08, 2012 1:28 pm
                                                Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. Jorge Pichard Sun Apr 08, 2012 2:47 pm
                                                      Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. Jorge Pichard Sun Apr 08, 2012 3:24 pm
                                                            Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. Guenther Simon Sun Apr 08, 2012 4:08 pm
                                                                  Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. Jorge Pichard Sun Apr 08, 2012 5:20 pm
                                                                  Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. Jorge Pichard Sun Apr 08, 2012 7:40 pm
                                                                        Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. Sven Schüle Sun Apr 08, 2012 9:35 pm
                                                                              Re: Here is my ending game Vs Komodo.................... Jorge Pichard Sun Apr 08, 2012 10:36 pm
                                                                                    Re: Here is my ending game Vs Komodo.................... Sven Schüle Sun Apr 08, 2012 11:30 pm
                                                                                          Re: Here is my ending game Vs Komodo.................... Jorge Pichard Sun Apr 08, 2012 11:42 pm
                                                      Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. Adam Hair Mon Apr 09, 2012 12:26 am
                                                            Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. Jorge Pichard Mon Apr 09, 2012 4:46 pm
                              Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. Vincent Diepeveen Sat Apr 07, 2012 4:56 pm
                                    Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. H.G.Muller Sat Apr 07, 2012 5:32 pm
                                    Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. Jorge Pichard Sat Apr 07, 2012 6:04 pm
                              Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. Maurizio Maglio Sat Apr 07, 2012 9:55 pm
                                    Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. Jimmy Huggins Sat Apr 07, 2012 10:12 pm
                                          Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. Jorge Pichard Sat Apr 07, 2012 11:03 pm
                                    Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. André Lopez Sun Apr 08, 2012 12:40 am
      Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. Richard Sutherland Sat Apr 07, 2012 6:47 pm
            Re: We should reconsider the value of the Queen............. Jorge Pichard Sat Apr 07, 2012 9:08 pm
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