| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Daniel Shawul
Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 2186
Location: Ethiopia
|
 Post subject: Re: Comparative nodes per second Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:27 pm |
  |
|
| lkaufman wrote: |
| Daniel Shawul wrote: |
| [Why do you underestimate the effect of time spent on eval ? It is there where most of the time (say 70%) of an engine is spent. Also the way the nodes are counted and the types of pruning (and the margins used) do matter a lot. Optimization is overrated so that can't be an answer. The compiler takes you far ahead than you could imagine. Houdini is somewhere in between nps wise but it kicks both... You just can't say anything based on nps unless the engines do everything the same. |
I don't know where you got that 70% figure, but it is certainly not typical of top engines. I think the typical figure is somewhere around 40%. At one time it was 50% in Komodo and we were certainly the highest of top programs in that regard. Anyway Stockfish is "built for speed" and it's hard to imagine that it would spend more than 10% more of total time in eval than Ivanhoe, whereas I'm looking to explain a 5 to 3 ratio. I think in some ways SF may spend less time in eval than Ivanhoe, because SF does movecount based pruning without needing a score whereas Ivanhoe does so with score considerations. But obviously if the speed difference is real and not an artifact of node counting, Ivanhoe must be spending much less time in many areas, and eval is almost surely one of them. But does it do so by having a simpler eval or by trying harder not to call eval at all? I know that lazy eval is a factor, since SF doesn't use it, but the fact that SF found it useless itself suggests that SF eval cannot be too bloated. |
I used to have 70% or more time spent on eval before I switched to bitboards and popcnt. Still 50% is not something that should be overlooked. You have mentioned all the possible cases that could cause this difference BUT optimization, which made me think that you think that is the cause. I guarantee you if both programs do the same thing you won't see much of a difference since compiler optimizes well. The algorithms used (prunings) OTOH can affect nps so much. For example, in my case 90% of my nodes are in qsearch so I would look carefully there if I want some speed ups. Size of evaluation, SEE vs MVV , captures and check move generation etc... Adding internal nodes evaluation may decrease nps a little but I don't expect it to affect me much. Or it could all be due to difference in counting who knows.
_________________
https://sites.google.com/site/dshawul/
https://github.com/dshawul |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
|
| Subject |
Author |
Date/Time |
 Comparative nodes per second |
Larry Kaufman |
Tue Apr 10, 2012 7:49 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Vincent Diepeveen |
Tue Apr 10, 2012 8:16 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Marco Costalba |
Tue Apr 10, 2012 8:41 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Larry Kaufman |
Tue Apr 10, 2012 9:02 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Thomas Petzke |
Tue Apr 10, 2012 9:30 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Richard Vida |
Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:15 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Larry Kaufman |
Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:18 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Sam Hamilton |
Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:54 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Richard Vida |
Tue Apr 10, 2012 11:28 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Larry Kaufman |
Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:52 am |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Don Dailey |
Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:23 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Don Dailey |
Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:50 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Sam Hamilton |
Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:07 am |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Robert Hyatt |
Tue Apr 10, 2012 9:31 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Larry Kaufman |
Tue Apr 10, 2012 9:35 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Robert Hyatt |
Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:10 am |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Daniel Shawul |
Tue Apr 10, 2012 11:41 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Larry Kaufman |
Wed Apr 11, 2012 5:05 am |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Sam Hamilton |
Wed Apr 11, 2012 5:28 am |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Marco Costalba |
Wed Apr 11, 2012 5:58 am |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Larry Kaufman |
Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:04 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Daniel Shawul |
Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:27 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Jon Dart |
Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:59 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Sam Hamilton |
Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:25 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Larry Kaufman |
Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:36 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Jon Dart |
Wed Apr 11, 2012 3:06 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Larry Kaufman |
Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:28 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Jon Dart |
Wed Apr 11, 2012 3:10 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Larry Kaufman |
Wed Apr 11, 2012 3:59 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Robert Hyatt |
Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:19 am |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Robert Hyatt |
Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:15 am |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Larry Kaufman |
Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:35 am |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Sam Hamilton |
Thu Apr 12, 2012 2:32 am |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Larry Kaufman |
Thu Apr 12, 2012 2:50 am |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Sam Hamilton |
Thu Apr 12, 2012 3:10 am |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Larry Kaufman |
Thu Apr 12, 2012 3:35 am |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Jon Dart |
Thu Apr 12, 2012 2:37 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Larry Kaufman |
Thu Apr 12, 2012 3:24 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Jon Dart |
Thu Apr 12, 2012 4:25 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Don Dailey |
Thu Apr 12, 2012 4:33 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Jon Dart |
Thu Apr 12, 2012 4:41 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Robert Hyatt |
Thu Apr 12, 2012 8:13 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Robert Hyatt |
Thu Apr 12, 2012 9:00 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Daniel Homan |
Thu Apr 12, 2012 9:52 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Robert Hyatt |
Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:26 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Larry Kaufman |
Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:40 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Sam Hamilton |
Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:51 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Robert Hyatt |
Sat Apr 14, 2012 4:23 am |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Uri Blass |
Sat Apr 14, 2012 5:05 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Robert Hyatt |
Sat Apr 14, 2012 6:46 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Don Dailey |
Sat Apr 14, 2012 6:56 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Robert Hyatt |
Sun Apr 15, 2012 4:31 am |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Larry Kaufman |
Sat Apr 14, 2012 7:47 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Robert Hyatt |
Sun Apr 15, 2012 4:36 am |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Larry Kaufman |
Sun Apr 15, 2012 4:47 am |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Robert Hyatt |
Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:14 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Robert Hyatt |
Tue Apr 17, 2012 3:02 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Robert Hyatt |
Thu Apr 12, 2012 6:50 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Larry Kaufman |
Thu Apr 12, 2012 8:12 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Robert Hyatt |
Sat Apr 14, 2012 4:28 am |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Larry Kaufman |
Sat Apr 14, 2012 4:45 am |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Robert Hyatt |
Sat Apr 14, 2012 4:46 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Larry Kaufman |
Sat Apr 14, 2012 5:10 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Sam Hamilton |
Sat Apr 14, 2012 5:35 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Robert Hyatt |
Sun Apr 15, 2012 4:38 am |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Larry Kaufman |
Sun Apr 15, 2012 4:51 am |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Robert Hyatt |
Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:20 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Don Dailey |
Sun Apr 15, 2012 12:14 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Robert Hyatt |
Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:21 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Uri Blass |
Sat Apr 14, 2012 5:17 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Larry Kaufman |
Sat Apr 14, 2012 5:22 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Uri Blass |
Sat Apr 14, 2012 5:36 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Larry Kaufman |
Sat Apr 14, 2012 5:47 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Sam Hamilton |
Thu Apr 12, 2012 4:49 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Larry Kaufman |
Thu Apr 12, 2012 5:14 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Jon Dart |
Thu Apr 12, 2012 6:00 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Uri Blass |
Thu Apr 12, 2012 6:37 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Jon Dart |
Thu Apr 12, 2012 6:50 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Uri Blass |
Thu Apr 12, 2012 6:53 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Lucas Braesch |
Sun Apr 15, 2012 4:56 am |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Uri Blass |
Sun Apr 15, 2012 5:16 am |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Lucas Braesch |
Sun Apr 15, 2012 7:58 am |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Don Dailey |
Sun Apr 15, 2012 1:10 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Uri Blass |
Sun Apr 15, 2012 2:48 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Don Dailey |
Sun Apr 15, 2012 3:26 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Robert Hyatt |
Tue Apr 17, 2012 5:17 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Sam Hamilton |
Tue Apr 17, 2012 6:05 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Robert Hyatt |
Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:11 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Don Dailey |
Tue Apr 17, 2012 6:06 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Sam Hamilton |
Tue Apr 17, 2012 6:16 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Don Dailey |
Tue Apr 17, 2012 6:45 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Sam Hamilton |
Tue Apr 17, 2012 6:55 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Robert Hyatt |
Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:16 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Sam Hamilton |
Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:25 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Robert Hyatt |
Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:59 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Sam Hamilton |
Tue Apr 17, 2012 8:14 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Miguel A. Ballicora |
Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:33 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Sam Hamilton |
Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:51 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Vincent Diepeveen |
Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:12 am |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Sam Hamilton |
Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:28 am |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Miguel A. Ballicora |
Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:28 am |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Sam Hamilton |
Wed Apr 18, 2012 4:32 am |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Miguel A. Ballicora |
Wed Apr 18, 2012 4:44 am |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Miguel A. Ballicora |
Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:28 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
José C. Martínez Galán |
Wed Apr 18, 2012 6:16 am |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Robert Hyatt |
Thu Apr 19, 2012 9:53 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Don Dailey |
Thu Apr 19, 2012 10:22 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
José C. Martínez Galán |
Thu Apr 19, 2012 10:49 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Robert Hyatt |
Thu Apr 19, 2012 11:21 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Marco Costalba |
Fri Apr 20, 2012 5:18 am |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Michel Van den Bergh |
Fri Apr 20, 2012 6:10 am |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Miguel A. Ballicora |
Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:35 am |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Don Dailey |
Fri Apr 20, 2012 10:57 am |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Marco Costalba |
Fri Apr 20, 2012 1:58 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Sam Hamilton |
Fri Apr 20, 2012 2:19 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Miguel A. Ballicora |
Fri Apr 20, 2012 2:29 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Don Dailey |
Fri Apr 20, 2012 3:13 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Don Dailey |
Fri Apr 20, 2012 4:52 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Uri Blass |
Sat Apr 21, 2012 6:03 am |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Marco Costalba |
Sat Apr 21, 2012 8:14 am |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Ed Schroder |
Sat Apr 21, 2012 10:50 am |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Marco Costalba |
Sat Apr 21, 2012 11:13 am |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Don Dailey |
Fri Apr 20, 2012 12:31 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Dan Andersson |
Fri Apr 20, 2012 4:14 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Don Dailey |
Fri Apr 20, 2012 4:38 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Robert Hyatt |
Thu Apr 12, 2012 7:10 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Robert Hyatt |
Thu Apr 12, 2012 6:55 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second (early results) |
Robert Hyatt |
Thu Apr 12, 2012 7:36 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Robert Hyatt |
Thu Apr 12, 2012 7:13 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Larry Kaufman |
Thu Apr 12, 2012 8:18 pm |
| Re: Comparative nodes per second |
Robert Hyatt |
Thu Apr 12, 2012 8:55 pm |
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
