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Elo Increase per Doubling
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Don Dailey



Joined: 29 Apr 2008
Posts: 4312
PostPost subject: Re: Elo Increase per Doubling    Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 5:46 pm Reply to topic Reply with quote
[quote="Don"]
petero2 wrote:
Don wrote:

The current asymptote is 4209.7 after more data collected.

Basically what you are saying is what we have always known and there are multiple issues here which is why I say this is just for fun. Here are just some of the issues:

1. True chess skill is not transitive.
2. Similar point - true chess skill is multi-dimensional.
3. ELO is not a perfect way to model chess skill.
4. No program can play perfect chess even with infinite resources due to GHI issues.
5. The exponential formula may not even be very appropriate.
6. The book could have some positions that are game theoretic wins.

Another issue is that there are multiple ways to implement a perfect player. Assuming chess is a draw and that it was possible to create a 32-man endgame tablebase, an engine that used that EGTB but just randomly picked an optimal move would probably draw a lot of games even against quite weak players. I imagine a game where the engine played black could start something like this:

1. e4 a6
2. d4 a5

Only when the engine risks losing it would play a "reasonable" move. If white later makes a positionally weak move, the engine will likely give up the advantage immediately. Very similar things happen if you play the weak side in a drawn KRBKR endgame against an engine with tablebases but with no "swindle" mode.

On the other hand, a perfect player that actively tries to steer the game towards positions where the opponent must play very exactly to maintain the draw would probably win almost all games even against the best human players.


P.S. Some evidence contrary to my last response is that Jonathan Schaeffer reports that this is a big factor in checkers - it is difficult to win in checkers because you start already with a "drawish" position. In his book "One Jump Ahead" he says something about the importance of an opening book that takes you away from easy games.

I guess if gamesmanship helps it pushes your rating up a little and the weaker players down a little and thus the entire rating pool expands.
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Subject Author Date/Time
Elo Increase per Doubling Adam Hair Mon May 07, 2012 11:40 am
      Re: Elo Increase per Doubling Julien MARCEL Mon May 07, 2012 12:04 pm
            Re: Elo Increase per Doubling Adam Hair Mon May 07, 2012 4:48 pm
                  Re: Elo Increase per Doubling Julien MARCEL Mon May 07, 2012 4:54 pm
            Re: Elo Increase per Doubling Adam Hair Mon May 07, 2012 8:50 pm
                  Re: Elo Increase per Doubling Julien MARCEL Mon May 07, 2012 9:00 pm
                        Re: Elo Increase per Doubling Mark Pearce Thu May 10, 2012 4:43 pm
      Re: Elo Increase per Doubling H.G.Muller Mon May 07, 2012 12:13 pm
            Re: Elo Increase per Doubling Michel Van den Bergh Mon May 07, 2012 2:01 pm
            Re: Elo Increase per Doubling Adam Hair Mon May 07, 2012 5:12 pm
                  Re: Elo Increase per Doubling Don Dailey Mon May 07, 2012 6:40 pm
                        Re: Elo Increase per Doubling Robert Wagner Campos Tue May 08, 2012 12:38 am
                              Re: Elo Increase per Doubling Don Dailey Tue May 08, 2012 3:32 am
                                    Re: Elo Increase per Doubling Adam Hair Tue May 08, 2012 10:02 am
                                          Re: Elo Increase per Doubling Julien MARCEL Tue May 08, 2012 10:55 am
                                                Re: Elo Increase per Doubling Adam Hair Tue May 08, 2012 8:08 pm
                                          Re: Elo Increase per Doubling Don Dailey Tue May 08, 2012 11:29 am
                                          Re: Elo Increase per Doubling Kai Laskos Tue May 08, 2012 11:59 am
                                                Re: Elo Increase per Doubling Adam Hair Tue May 08, 2012 8:13 pm
                                                      Re: Elo Increase per Doubling Kai Laskos Tue May 08, 2012 10:21 pm
                                                            Re: Elo Increase per Doubling Don Dailey Tue May 08, 2012 10:52 pm
                                                            Re: Elo Increase per Doubling Adam Hair Tue May 08, 2012 11:14 pm
                                                                  Re: Elo Increase per Doubling Kai Laskos Wed May 09, 2012 12:20 am
                                                                        Re: Elo Increase per Doubling Adam Hair Wed May 09, 2012 2:44 am
                                                                              Re: Elo Increase per Doubling H.G.Muller Wed May 09, 2012 8:05 am
                                                                                    Re: Elo Increase per Doubling Adam Hair Wed May 09, 2012 5:12 pm
                                                                                          Re: Elo Increase per Doubling Larry Kaufman Thu May 10, 2012 3:11 am
                                                                                          Re: Elo Increase per Doubling Don Dailey Thu May 10, 2012 5:03 am
                                                                                          Re: Elo Increase per Doubling Larry Kaufman Thu May 10, 2012 5:19 am
                                                                                          Re: Elo Increase per Doubling Don Dailey Thu May 10, 2012 12:43 pm
                                                                                          Re: Elo Increase per Doubling Peter Österlund Thu May 10, 2012 4:59 pm
                                                                                          Re: Elo Increase per Doubling Julien MARCEL Thu May 10, 2012 5:09 pm
                                                                                          Re: Elo Increase per Doubling Don Dailey Thu May 10, 2012 5:41 pm
                                                                                          Re: Elo Increase per Doubling Don Dailey Thu May 10, 2012 5:46 pm
                                          Re: Elo Increase per Doubling Ed Schroder Tue May 08, 2012 12:09 pm
                                                Re: Elo Increase per Doubling Don Dailey Tue May 08, 2012 12:10 pm
                                                      Re: Elo Increase per Doubling Ed Schroder Tue May 08, 2012 12:28 pm
                                                            Re: Elo Increase per Doubling Don Dailey Tue May 08, 2012 12:36 pm
                                                                  Re: Elo Increase per Doubling Ed Schroder Tue May 08, 2012 1:15 pm
                                                                        Re: Elo Increase per Doubling Don Dailey Tue May 08, 2012 2:37 pm
                                                                              Re: Elo Increase per Doubling Julien MARCEL Tue May 08, 2012 3:15 pm
                                                                                    Re: Elo Increase per Doubling Don Dailey Tue May 08, 2012 6:15 pm
                                                                                          Re: Elo Increase per Doubling Peter Österlund Tue May 08, 2012 8:06 pm
                                                                                          Re: Elo Increase per Doubling Don Dailey Tue May 08, 2012 8:25 pm
                                                                                          Re: Elo Increase per Doubling Peter Österlund Tue May 08, 2012 9:00 pm
                                                                                          Re: Elo Increase per Doubling Julien MARCEL Tue May 08, 2012 9:02 pm
                                                                                          Re: Elo Increase per Doubling Don Dailey Tue May 08, 2012 9:06 pm
                                                                                          Re: Elo Increase per Doubling Don Dailey Wed May 09, 2012 4:26 pm
                                                                                          Re: Elo Increase per Doubling Peter Österlund Wed May 09, 2012 4:52 pm
                                                                                          Re: Elo Increase per Doubling Don Dailey Wed May 09, 2012 5:19 pm
                                                                                          Re: Elo Increase per Doubling Don Dailey Thu May 10, 2012 1:41 pm
                                                                                          Re: Elo Increase per Doubling Don Dailey Thu May 10, 2012 4:52 pm
                                                                                          Re: Elo Increase per Doubling Adam Hair Thu May 10, 2012 9:07 pm
                                                                                          Re: Elo Increase per Doubling Don Dailey Thu May 10, 2012 10:55 pm
                                                                                          Re: Elo Increase per Doubling Adam Hair Fri May 11, 2012 12:46 am
                                                                                          Re: Elo Increase per Doubling Adam Hair Fri May 11, 2012 1:06 am
                                                                                          Re: Elo Increase per Doubling Don Dailey Wed May 09, 2012 5:00 pm
                                                                                          Re: Elo Increase per Doubling Adam Hair Tue May 08, 2012 9:05 pm
                                                                                          Re: Elo Increase per Doubling Don Dailey Tue May 08, 2012 9:18 pm
                                                                                          Re: Elo Increase per Doubling Adam Hair Tue May 08, 2012 11:26 pm
                                                                                          Re: Elo Increase per Doubling Don Dailey Wed May 09, 2012 2:50 am
                                                                                          Re: Elo Increase per Doubling Adam Hair Tue May 15, 2012 3:17 am
                                                                                    Re: Elo Increase per Doubling Don Dailey Tue May 08, 2012 6:23 pm
                                          Re: Elo Increase per Doubling Ed Schroder Tue May 08, 2012 12:18 pm
                                                Re: Elo Increase per Doubling Don Dailey Tue May 08, 2012 12:25 pm
                                                      Re: Elo Increase per Doubling Don Dailey Tue May 08, 2012 12:27 pm
                                                            Re: Elo Increase per Doubling Robert Hyatt Tue May 08, 2012 3:36 pm
                                                                  Re: Elo Increase per Doubling Don Dailey Tue May 08, 2012 5:32 pm
      Re: Elo Increase per Doubling Daniel Shawul Fri May 11, 2012 5:48 pm
            Re: Elo Increase per Doubling Don Dailey Fri May 11, 2012 6:30 pm
                  Re: Elo Increase per Doubling Julien MARCEL Fri May 11, 2012 6:52 pm
                        Re: Elo Increase per Doubling Don Dailey Fri May 11, 2012 7:05 pm
                  Re: Elo Increase per Doubling Daniel Shawul Fri May 11, 2012 7:08 pm
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