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Daniel Shawul
Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 2260
Location: Ethiopia
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 Post subject: Re: Zobrist alternative? Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:22 pm |
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| Quote: |
Well, this is more a space issue than a speed issue anyway. In these insanely large variants even running the move generator or making an evaluation is extremely expensive compared to updating the Zobrist key, and usually you do at least one or the other after a key update. So it doesn,'t matter so much if it takes 5 or 10 clock cycles to generate the key. As long as you don't overflow L2/L3 with the key tables, so that it would require a costly RAM access, the gain that can be achieved is pretty marginal.
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Well quality of keys (hash collisions) is another issue. The penalty of using a mixing hash function could be hefty.
| Quote: |
Of course incremental techniques become extremely competitive, with such large boards. Because the scale as the board circumference, rather than area. This is what made it interesting for me. So I plan to have incrementally updated mobility (total and for each piece separately) as well as an attack map for each occupied square. On 36x36, even scanning all 4 rays through the from- and the to-square edge-to-edge to see which moves were blocked / unblocked would only take a fraction of the time needed to scan the entire board or run through the piece list. (Let alone when you would then have to generate all moves for each piece you encounter...)
Of course even such incremental techniques cannot help that the branching ratio will be huge, so hefty LMR is probably called for to reach any depth at all. And search explosion in QS could be a concern in the presence of Lions or pieces with similar 'double-move' power, which is another fundamental challenge.
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I think for this game qsearch is too much. In nebiyu I don't do qsearch in multi-player games and suicide chess variants. I have a small tactical analysis layer for games like Go that only considers ladders and other typical tactical patterns. Other people use some kind of zonal analysis instead of full board swaps which is time consuming.
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| Subject |
Author |
Date/Time |
 Zobrist alternative? |
H.G.Muller |
Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:35 pm |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
Kevin Hearn |
Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:44 pm |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
Daniel Shawul |
Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:19 pm |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
H.G.Muller |
Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:54 pm |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
Daniel Shawul |
Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:46 pm |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
Daniel Shawul |
Wed Jun 13, 2012 3:24 am |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
Daniel Shawul |
Wed Jun 13, 2012 4:14 am |
| ignored idea here |
Daniel Shawul |
Wed Jun 13, 2012 4:00 pm |
| Re: ignored idea here |
Daniel Shawul |
Thu Jun 14, 2012 1:30 am |
| Re: ignored idea here |
H.G.Muller |
Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:50 am |
| Re: ignored idea here |
Daniel Shawul |
Thu Jun 14, 2012 12:52 pm |
| Re: ignored idea here |
Edmund Moshammer |
Thu Jun 14, 2012 8:21 am |
| Re: ignored idea here |
Edmund Moshammer |
Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:27 am |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
Wylie Garvin |
Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:27 pm |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
H.G.Muller |
Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:36 pm |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
Vincent Diepeveen |
Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:01 pm |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
Wylie Garvin |
Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:57 pm |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
H.G.Muller |
Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:42 am |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
Robert Hyatt |
Thu Jun 14, 2012 1:17 pm |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
H.G.Muller |
Thu Jun 14, 2012 2:17 pm |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
Wylie Garvin |
Thu Jun 14, 2012 6:11 pm |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
Vincent Diepeveen |
Sat Jun 16, 2012 10:05 am |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
Reinhard Scharnagl |
Wed Jun 13, 2012 9:52 am |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
Edmund Moshammer |
Wed Jun 13, 2012 9:58 am |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
Reinhard Scharnagl |
Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:49 pm |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
Edmund Moshammer |
Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:15 pm |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
Reinhard Scharnagl |
Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:41 pm |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
Edmund Moshammer |
Wed Jun 13, 2012 3:55 pm |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
Reinhard Scharnagl |
Wed Jun 13, 2012 4:03 pm |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
H.G.Muller |
Wed Jun 13, 2012 2:19 pm |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
Vincent Diepeveen |
Wed Jun 13, 2012 2:44 pm |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
Vincent Diepeveen |
Wed Jun 13, 2012 2:48 pm |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
Vincent Diepeveen |
Wed Jun 13, 2012 3:28 pm |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
H.G.Muller |
Wed Jun 13, 2012 4:01 pm |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
Vincent Diepeveen |
Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:42 pm |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
H.G.Muller |
Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:51 pm |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
Vincent Diepeveen |
Wed Jun 13, 2012 6:27 pm |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
Daniel Shawul |
Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:29 pm |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
Karlo Bala Jr. |
Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:50 am |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
Reinhard Scharnagl |
Thu Jun 14, 2012 8:49 am |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
H.G.Muller |
Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:09 am |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
Daniel Shawul |
Thu Jun 14, 2012 1:11 pm |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
Vincent Diepeveen |
Sat Jun 16, 2012 10:12 am |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
Don Dailey |
Thu Jun 14, 2012 4:46 pm |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
Don Dailey |
Thu Jun 14, 2012 6:38 pm |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
Daniel Shawul |
Thu Jun 14, 2012 6:57 pm |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
Don Dailey |
Fri Jun 15, 2012 2:39 pm |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
H.G.Muller |
Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:46 pm |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
Daniel Shawul |
Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:22 pm |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
H.G.Muller |
Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:38 pm |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
Vincent Diepeveen |
Sat Jun 16, 2012 10:17 am |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
Daniel Shawul |
Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:04 pm |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
Don Dailey |
Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:00 pm |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
Daniel Shawul |
Fri Jun 15, 2012 7:27 pm |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
Don Dailey |
Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:16 pm |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
Daniel Shawul |
Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:42 pm |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
Daniel Shawul |
Fri Jun 15, 2012 9:14 pm |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
Don Dailey |
Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:59 pm |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
Daniel Shawul |
Sat Jun 16, 2012 12:17 am |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
Don Dailey |
Sat Jun 16, 2012 4:28 am |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
Daniel Shawul |
Sat Jun 16, 2012 6:30 am |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
Daniel Shawul |
Sat Jun 16, 2012 10:09 am |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
Vincent Diepeveen |
Sat Jun 16, 2012 10:22 am |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
Vincent Diepeveen |
Sat Jun 16, 2012 10:42 am |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
Vincent Diepeveen |
Sat Jun 16, 2012 10:54 am |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
Daniel Shawul |
Sat Jun 16, 2012 11:03 am |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
Vincent Diepeveen |
Sat Jun 16, 2012 11:08 am |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
Don Dailey |
Sat Jun 16, 2012 12:03 pm |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
Vincent Diepeveen |
Sat Jun 16, 2012 12:55 pm |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
Vincent Diepeveen |
Sat Jun 16, 2012 2:21 pm |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
Daniel Shawul |
Sat Jun 16, 2012 2:25 pm |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
Vincent Diepeveen |
Sat Jun 16, 2012 2:44 pm |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
Daniel Shawul |
Sat Jun 16, 2012 12:35 pm |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
Vincent Diepeveen |
Sat Jun 16, 2012 1:11 pm |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
Vincent Diepeveen |
Sat Jun 16, 2012 1:15 pm |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
Vincent Diepeveen |
Sat Jun 16, 2012 1:56 pm |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
Daniel Shawul |
Sat Jun 16, 2012 2:05 pm |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
Vincent Diepeveen |
Sat Jun 16, 2012 2:10 pm |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
Daniel Shawul |
Sat Jun 16, 2012 2:22 pm |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
Vincent Diepeveen |
Sat Jun 16, 2012 2:29 pm |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
Daniel Shawul |
Sat Jun 16, 2012 2:35 pm |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
Vincent Diepeveen |
Sat Jun 16, 2012 2:39 pm |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
Don Dailey |
Sat Jun 16, 2012 3:49 pm |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
Daniel Shawul |
Sat Jun 16, 2012 4:35 pm |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
Daniel Shawul |
Sat Jun 16, 2012 2:11 pm |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
Vincent Diepeveen |
Sat Jun 16, 2012 2:13 pm |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
Vincent Diepeveen |
Sat Jun 16, 2012 2:19 pm |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
Daniel Shawul |
Sat Jun 16, 2012 2:29 pm |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
Vincent Diepeveen |
Sat Jun 16, 2012 2:32 pm |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
Daniel Shawul |
Sat Jun 16, 2012 4:19 pm |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
Don Dailey |
Sat Jun 16, 2012 4:50 pm |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
Daniel Shawul |
Sat Jun 16, 2012 4:25 pm |
| Re: Zobrist alternative? |
Don Dailey |
Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:21 pm |
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