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KQKP and KRKP endgames
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Ronald de Man



Joined: 28 Feb 2012
Posts: 847
PostPost subject: Re: KQKP and KRKP endgames    Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 12:39 pm Reply to topic Reply with quote
Sven Schüle wrote:
syzygy wrote:
Could it be that Joona is talking about internal node recognisers that cut a whole subtree when a position with known outcome is reached?

I suppose it could indeed be hard to statically determine with 100% certainty whether KQKQ is draw, but I don't see the need for the evaluation to evaluate KQKQ 100% correct. I do see the need for 100% correctness of internal node recognisers.

Certainly I do not intend to anticipate Joona's reply to your question but at least all those "mating the lone king" cases he included in his list, like KQK or KBNK, are not of that kind, or would you say that KBNK needs an internal node recognizer?

Within a search, it makes sense to not search the subtree further once you reach a position like KQK, KBNK or KQKQ, but then you need to be absolutely sure that the specific KQK and KBNK positions reached really are wins and that the specific KQKQ position reached really is a draw. For KBNK and KQKQ this probably requires quite a bit of code. Joona's reply makes complete sense to me if I assume that this is what he is talking about.

Quote:
I understood that the original post by Lucas was about recognizing known draws.

The original post by Lucas isn't entirely clear on whether he wants to do the check only in the eval (i.e. in leaf nodes) or also at internal nodes.

I think most of the discussion was on rules to be used in the eval. In the eval, you only need suitable PSTs for solving KQK, KBNK, KRK, and you need nothing special to play KQKQ perfectly. So this can't be what Joona is talking about.
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Subject Author Date/Time
KQKP and KRKP endgames Lucas Braesch Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:30 pm
      Re: KQKP and KRKP endgames Mincho Georgiev Fri Jun 22, 2012 4:10 pm
      Re: KQKP and KRKP endgames Sven Schüle Fri Jun 22, 2012 4:11 pm
            Re: KQKP and KRKP endgames Lucas Braesch Sat Jun 23, 2012 7:12 am
                  Re: KQKP and KRKP endgames Kevin Hearn Sat Jun 23, 2012 8:45 am
                  Re: KQKP and KRKP endgames Sven Schüle Sat Jun 23, 2012 12:08 pm
                        Re: KQKP and KRKP endgames Sven Schüle Sat Jun 23, 2012 12:24 pm
                              Re: KQKP and KRKP endgames Lucas Braesch Sat Jun 23, 2012 12:36 pm
                                    Re: KQKP and KRKP endgames Sven Schüle Sat Jun 23, 2012 3:19 pm
                              Re: KQKP and KRKP endgames Ronald de Man Sat Jun 23, 2012 1:49 pm
                                    Re: KQKP and KRKP endgames Miguel A. Ballicora Sat Jun 23, 2012 2:45 pm
                                          Re: KQKP and KRKP endgames Ronald de Man Sat Jun 23, 2012 4:05 pm
                                                Re: KQKP and KRKP endgames Sven Schüle Sat Jun 23, 2012 4:19 pm
                                                      Re: KQKP and KRKP endgames Ronald de Man Sat Jun 23, 2012 5:11 pm
                                                            Re: KQKP and KRKP endgames Miguel A. Ballicora Sat Jun 23, 2012 5:37 pm
                                                                  Re: KQKP and KRKP endgames Michel Van den Bergh Sat Jun 23, 2012 6:09 pm
                                                                        Re: KQKP and KRKP endgames Joona Kiiski Sat Jun 23, 2012 6:16 pm
                                                                              Re: KQKP and KRKP endgames Daniel Shawul Sat Jun 23, 2012 6:27 pm
                                                                                    Re: KQKP and KRKP endgames Tord Romstad Sun Jun 24, 2012 6:32 pm
                                                                                          Re: KQKP and KRKP endgames Daniel Shawul Sun Jun 24, 2012 11:17 pm
                                                                                          Re: KQKP and KRKP endgames Robert Hyatt Mon Jun 25, 2012 12:21 am
                                                                  Re: KQKP and KRKP endgames Ronald de Man Sat Jun 23, 2012 6:21 pm
                                                                        Re: KQKP and KRKP endgames Miguel A. Ballicora Sun Jun 24, 2012 7:19 pm
                                                                              Re: KQKP and KRKP endgames Robert Hyatt Mon Jun 25, 2012 12:32 am
                                                                  Re: KQKP and KRKP endgames Robert Hyatt Mon Jun 25, 2012 12:17 am
                                          Re: KQKP and KRKP endgames Thomas Petzke Sat Jun 23, 2012 4:21 pm
      Re: KQKP and KRKP endgames Joona Kiiski Sat Jun 23, 2012 4:44 pm
            Re: KQKP and KRKP endgames Lucas Braesch Sun Jun 24, 2012 3:14 am
            Re: KQKP and KRKP endgames Sven Schüle Sun Jun 24, 2012 10:14 am
                  Re: KQKP and KRKP endgames Ronald de Man Sun Jun 24, 2012 11:05 am
                        Re: KQKP and KRKP endgames Sven Schüle Sun Jun 24, 2012 11:51 am
                              Re: KQKP and KRKP endgames Ronald de Man Sun Jun 24, 2012 12:39 pm
                                    Re: KQKP and KRKP endgames Sven Schüle Sun Jun 24, 2012 2:15 pm
                                          Re: KQKP and KRKP endgames Ronald de Man Sun Jun 24, 2012 2:24 pm
                  Re: KQKP and KRKP endgames Uri Blass Sun Jun 24, 2012 1:24 pm
                        Re: KQKP and KRKP endgames Sven Schüle Sun Jun 24, 2012 1:46 pm
            Re: KQKP and KRKP endgames Uri Blass Sun Jun 24, 2012 1:30 pm
                  Re: KQKP and KRKP endgames Thomas Petzke Mon Jun 25, 2012 7:27 am
            Re: KQKP and KRKP endgames Joona Kiiski Sun Jun 24, 2012 5:13 pm
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