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Programmer code of honor (update)
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Sune Fischer



Joined: 17 Sep 2009
Posts: 109
PostPost subject: Re: Programmer code of honor (update)    Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:29 pm Reply to topic Reply with quote
lkaufman wrote:
It is obvious that you and Don mean two different things by "RE". I often try to discover things about other programs by observing their behavior, which is what Don refers to when he says I do RE. I am utterly incapable of doing disassembly myself, which is what you define as RE. I do feel free to make use of any published comments by anyone who himself has done RE. So at the very minimum you should change RE to disassembly in the document.
But I would also say that I see nothing wrong with using disassembly on any program that itself is based on a program which did use this technique. Since this applies to so many engines now the whole idea is pretty much moot. I also think it makes no sense to prohibit something that is completely undetectable and unprovable.


To me RE means disassebling the code.
I do belive there are "ethical" isssues with doing it.

It takes a long time and hard work to come up with real novelties in computer chess. When it does happen you want to keep your findings to yourself for as as long as possible. Otherwise you are just raising the bar for everyone instead of leaping forward yourself. To most serious contenders this would simply mean you have wasted your time.

I mean, imagine if Gelfand could have see all Anand's opening preparations during the WC. Anand would simply have wasted his time for nothing.

I don't see how RE can be defended. It is simply looking at someone elses ideas without their permission. They didn't mean to tell you about their tricks, if they did they could have made the engine open source or written about it on the forums.

Illegal perhaps not, unethical absolutely!

Quote:
You cannot tell if someone desassebled another program, you can only tell if they copied the details to a point that proved that they had to have decompiled the program.
So I would rather see something like a prohibition on copying exact details (parameter values for example) from another program without permission than a prohibition on decompiling. The former is verifiable (if only by decompiling !), the later is not.


I think the odds that the exact same values will fit into your own engine is tiny, a re-tuning would be needed which makes detection much harder.
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Subject Author Date/Time
Programmer code of honor (update) Ed Schroder Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:03 am
      Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Ricardo Barreira Fri Jun 29, 2012 7:09 pm
            Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Vincent Diepeveen Fri Jun 29, 2012 10:55 pm
            Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Ed Schroder Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:19 am
                  Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Dan Honeycutt Mon Jul 02, 2012 3:47 pm
      Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Vincent Diepeveen Fri Jun 29, 2012 10:41 pm
            Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Ed Schroder Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:21 am
      Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Don Dailey Thu Jul 05, 2012 4:22 pm
            Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Ed Schroder Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:02 pm
                  Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Don Dailey Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:14 pm
                        Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Ed Schroder Sat Jul 07, 2012 10:17 am
                              Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Don Dailey Sat Jul 07, 2012 10:41 am
                              Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Richard Vida Sat Jul 07, 2012 11:13 am
                        Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Marco Costalba Sat Jul 07, 2012 10:46 am
                              Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Uri Blass Sat Jul 07, 2012 11:25 am
                              Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Thomas Petzke Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:44 pm
                              Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Robert Hyatt Sat Jul 07, 2012 3:04 pm
                                    Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Uri Blass Sat Jul 07, 2012 3:17 pm
                                          Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Ed Schroder Sat Jul 07, 2012 7:07 pm
                                                Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Uri Blass Sat Jul 07, 2012 7:19 pm
                                                      Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Ed Schroder Sat Jul 07, 2012 8:08 pm
                                                            Re: Programmer code of honor (update) H.G.Muller Sat Jul 07, 2012 8:27 pm
                                                                  Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Ed Schroder Sat Jul 07, 2012 9:55 pm
                                                                        Re: Programmer code of honor (update) H.G.Muller Sun Jul 08, 2012 7:59 am
                                                                              Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Ed Schroder Sun Jul 08, 2012 9:55 am
                                                                                    Re: Programmer code of honor (update) H.G.Muller Mon Jul 09, 2012 9:17 am
                                                                                          Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Ed Schroder Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:40 am
                                                                                          Re: Programmer code of honor (update) H.G.Muller Mon Jul 09, 2012 11:51 am
                                                                                          Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Vincent Diepeveen Fri Jul 13, 2012 2:36 pm
                                                                        Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Vincent Diepeveen Fri Jul 13, 2012 2:30 pm
                                                                  Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Joerg Oster Sun Jul 08, 2012 9:35 am
                                                                        Re: Programmer code of honor (update) H.G.Muller Mon Jul 09, 2012 9:03 am
                                                                              Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Joerg Oster Mon Jul 09, 2012 9:41 am
                                                                              Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Thomas Petzke Mon Jul 09, 2012 6:03 pm
                                                            Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Vincent Diepeveen Fri Jul 13, 2012 2:26 pm
                                                      Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Thomas Petzke Sun Jul 08, 2012 10:06 am
                  Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Larry Kaufman Wed Jul 11, 2012 2:51 pm
                        Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Sune Fischer Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:29 pm
                              Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Larry Kaufman Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:54 pm
                                    Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Sune Fischer Thu Jul 12, 2012 10:40 am
                                          Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Vincent Diepeveen Thu Jul 12, 2012 10:47 am
                                                Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Sune Fischer Thu Jul 12, 2012 11:39 am
                                                      Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Vincent Diepeveen Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:19 pm
                                                            Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Ed Schroder Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:59 pm
                                                                  Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Vincent Diepeveen Thu Jul 12, 2012 8:51 pm
                                                                        Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Ed Schroder Thu Jul 12, 2012 9:27 pm
                                                            Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Rolf Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:55 pm
                        Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Ronald de Man Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:03 pm
                              Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Robert Houdart Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:52 pm
                                    Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Vincent Diepeveen Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:55 pm
                                          Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Robert Houdart Wed Jul 11, 2012 5:02 pm
                                                Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Vincent Diepeveen Wed Jul 11, 2012 5:12 pm
                                                      Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Robert Houdart Wed Jul 11, 2012 5:18 pm
                                                            Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Vincent Diepeveen Wed Jul 11, 2012 5:24 pm
                                                      Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Larry Kaufman Wed Jul 11, 2012 8:27 pm
                                                            Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Robert Houdart Wed Jul 11, 2012 9:35 pm
                                                            Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Vincent Diepeveen Thu Jul 12, 2012 10:06 am
                                                                  Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Lucas Braesch Thu Jul 12, 2012 11:26 am
                                                                        Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Vincent Diepeveen Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:03 pm
                                                                              Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Uri Blass Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:56 pm
                                                                              Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Lucas Braesch Thu Jul 12, 2012 3:24 pm
                                                                                    Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Vincent Diepeveen Thu Jul 12, 2012 9:09 pm
                                                                                          Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Lucas Braesch Fri Jul 13, 2012 3:59 am
                                                                                          Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Thomas Petzke Fri Jul 13, 2012 6:58 am
                                                                  Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Larry Kaufman Fri Jul 13, 2012 4:20 pm
                                                                        Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Vincent Diepeveen Fri Jul 13, 2012 6:00 pm
                                                Re: Programmer code of honor (update) H.G.Muller Wed Jul 11, 2012 5:59 pm
                                    Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Dan Honeycutt Wed Jul 11, 2012 7:58 pm
                                    Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Larry Kaufman Wed Jul 11, 2012 8:33 pm
                                          Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Robert Houdart Wed Jul 11, 2012 9:32 pm
                                          Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Dan Honeycutt Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:03 am
                                                Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Eelco de Groot Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:51 am
                                                      Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Dan Honeycutt Thu Jul 12, 2012 2:41 am
                                                            Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Rolf Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:28 pm
                                          Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Adam Hair Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:38 am
                                    Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Ed Schroder Thu Jul 12, 2012 9:04 am
                                    Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Rolf Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:12 pm
            Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Robert Houdart Thu Jul 05, 2012 11:07 pm
                  Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Don Dailey Fri Jul 06, 2012 12:18 am
                  Re: Programmer code of honor (update) H.G.Muller Sat Jul 07, 2012 10:45 am
                        Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Richard Vida Sat Jul 07, 2012 11:48 am
                              Re: Programmer code of honor (update) H.G.Muller Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:27 pm
                              Re: Programmer code of honor (update) OFF_TOPIC Alcides Schulz Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:39 pm
      Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Vincent Lejeune Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:25 am
            Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Ed Schroder Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:41 am
                  Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Vincent Lejeune Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:51 am
                        Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Ed Schroder Mon Jul 09, 2012 11:10 am
      Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Matthew Hull Fri Jul 13, 2012 5:56 am
            Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Sune Fischer Fri Jul 13, 2012 7:01 am
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