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Programmer code of honor (update)
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Vincent Diepeveen



Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 1738
Location: The Netherlands
PostPost subject: Re: Programmer code of honor (update)    Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 10:47 am Reply to topic Reply with quote
SuneF wrote:
lkaufman wrote:
I would be happy if decompiling were impossible. I expect that once Komodo is number one others will try to decompile it to learn its secrets. But there is nothing to be done about this.


Indeed, nothing but a gentlemans agreement that we don't do it. So if one signs and still does it, when that would make him not only a disassembler/cloner/deriver but also lier. Those who don't sign it... well, guess they aren't liers then Smile
We also have to be realistic, there is plenty of opportunity for cloning and deriving without getting caught if you are skilled enough, in the end all we have is basic trust in a swarn oath.

lkaufman wrote:

To me the analogy is if Anand and Gelfand were forced to do their preparation with their seconds with open mikes that the other side could hear. They would just have to adapt to the situation.


Yes but adapt how?
If you're suggesting that everyone learns assembly only to RE Houdini and Komodo then I think that is a rather pathetic situation for computer chess. What is needed is creativity, new ideas, fresh young minds who can deliver breakthroughs, not new soup from old bones (no offence).

lkaufman wrote:

So while I agree with you in principle, I don't like unenforceable rules that only harm those who chose to abide by them. I agree with Richard Vida, it's not the act of decompiling that is wrong, it's a question of what you do with the information. If you copy original ideas in detail, that is provable (with enough work and decompiling) and wrong. If you just get some general idea, let's say it inspires you to work more on time management for example, that is unprovable and in my view not objectionable. Of course there is no absolute rule that says what is ok and what is not, it's a matter of judgement.


That's a rather arbitrary distinction IMO, a bit like saying "it's okay to steal if only I keep it for myself and don't sell it on to others".
And because you take idea X and turn it into X+delta it doesn't change the fact that you still got idea X by spying.
Ideas should not be shared through RE but through normal conversation, anything else is just underhanded and sneaky.
The fact that we can't prevent people from doing it doesn't in any way excuse it, we also can't prevent speeding on the highway or prevent people from doing drugs....


All nonsense aside - the thing that's missing is not a code of honor from a guy who i'm not so sure of 100% that he was following this himself in the days he COULD MAKE MONEY WITH IT.

What would have happened some years ago when guys carried other names,
is that Fabien Letouzey could start massive amount of courtcases against all the fruit clones, including Rybka and others, and also against websites.

The websites are out of the air quickly and Fabien would win all the courtcases in the long run and also end up with big amount of cash.

He can claim hundreds of thousands quite easily.
In some cases he ends up with money in others he doesn't, but it STOPS bunches of clones.

Such 'stopping actions' didn't occur simply.

If you pointed a finger even to Stefan Meyer-Kahlen in the past, Ossi Weiner would start a courtcase or 5 default where you cannot defend yourself, so you ahve to pay expensive lawyer.

In Europe you don't get back lawyer costs even if you win courtcase (that happens so seldom - we can say NEVER here for cases like this).

On the other hand if you do a bunch of such clean up actions, only the first action you'll lose quite some lawyer costs after that it's a lot cheaper as you have already the ways to do it.

That stops nearly all the clones instantly.

And yes you can get away avoiding legal problems, but in the first place most cloners are not having even the IQ to hide it. They are such clumsy beginners that they lose elorating already if they need to modify a few parameters from a piece square table, as we can see even in rybka. There is a few exceptions to that rule, but 90% of the clones is VROOM gone.

Such cleaning up actions didn't happen.

Fabien would need to ship just 1 email to the FSF for this. I don't know why it didn't happen.
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Subject Author Date/Time
Programmer code of honor (update) Ed Schroder Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:03 am
      Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Ricardo Barreira Fri Jun 29, 2012 7:09 pm
            Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Vincent Diepeveen Fri Jun 29, 2012 10:55 pm
            Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Ed Schroder Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:19 am
                  Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Dan Honeycutt Mon Jul 02, 2012 3:47 pm
      Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Vincent Diepeveen Fri Jun 29, 2012 10:41 pm
            Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Ed Schroder Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:21 am
      Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Don Dailey Thu Jul 05, 2012 4:22 pm
            Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Ed Schroder Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:02 pm
                  Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Don Dailey Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:14 pm
                        Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Ed Schroder Sat Jul 07, 2012 10:17 am
                              Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Don Dailey Sat Jul 07, 2012 10:41 am
                              Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Richard Vida Sat Jul 07, 2012 11:13 am
                        Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Marco Costalba Sat Jul 07, 2012 10:46 am
                              Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Uri Blass Sat Jul 07, 2012 11:25 am
                              Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Thomas Petzke Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:44 pm
                              Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Robert Hyatt Sat Jul 07, 2012 3:04 pm
                                    Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Uri Blass Sat Jul 07, 2012 3:17 pm
                                          Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Ed Schroder Sat Jul 07, 2012 7:07 pm
                                                Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Uri Blass Sat Jul 07, 2012 7:19 pm
                                                      Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Ed Schroder Sat Jul 07, 2012 8:08 pm
                                                            Re: Programmer code of honor (update) H.G.Muller Sat Jul 07, 2012 8:27 pm
                                                                  Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Ed Schroder Sat Jul 07, 2012 9:55 pm
                                                                        Re: Programmer code of honor (update) H.G.Muller Sun Jul 08, 2012 7:59 am
                                                                              Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Ed Schroder Sun Jul 08, 2012 9:55 am
                                                                                    Re: Programmer code of honor (update) H.G.Muller Mon Jul 09, 2012 9:17 am
                                                                                          Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Ed Schroder Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:40 am
                                                                                          Re: Programmer code of honor (update) H.G.Muller Mon Jul 09, 2012 11:51 am
                                                                                          Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Vincent Diepeveen Fri Jul 13, 2012 2:36 pm
                                                                        Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Vincent Diepeveen Fri Jul 13, 2012 2:30 pm
                                                                  Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Joerg Oster Sun Jul 08, 2012 9:35 am
                                                                        Re: Programmer code of honor (update) H.G.Muller Mon Jul 09, 2012 9:03 am
                                                                              Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Joerg Oster Mon Jul 09, 2012 9:41 am
                                                                              Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Thomas Petzke Mon Jul 09, 2012 6:03 pm
                                                            Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Vincent Diepeveen Fri Jul 13, 2012 2:26 pm
                                                      Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Thomas Petzke Sun Jul 08, 2012 10:06 am
                  Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Larry Kaufman Wed Jul 11, 2012 2:51 pm
                        Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Sune Fischer Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:29 pm
                              Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Larry Kaufman Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:54 pm
                                    Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Sune Fischer Thu Jul 12, 2012 10:40 am
                                          Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Vincent Diepeveen Thu Jul 12, 2012 10:47 am
                                                Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Sune Fischer Thu Jul 12, 2012 11:39 am
                                                      Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Vincent Diepeveen Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:19 pm
                                                            Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Ed Schroder Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:59 pm
                                                                  Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Vincent Diepeveen Thu Jul 12, 2012 8:51 pm
                                                                        Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Ed Schroder Thu Jul 12, 2012 9:27 pm
                                                            Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Rolf Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:55 pm
                        Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Ronald de Man Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:03 pm
                              Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Robert Houdart Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:52 pm
                                    Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Vincent Diepeveen Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:55 pm
                                          Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Robert Houdart Wed Jul 11, 2012 5:02 pm
                                                Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Vincent Diepeveen Wed Jul 11, 2012 5:12 pm
                                                      Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Robert Houdart Wed Jul 11, 2012 5:18 pm
                                                            Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Vincent Diepeveen Wed Jul 11, 2012 5:24 pm
                                                      Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Larry Kaufman Wed Jul 11, 2012 8:27 pm
                                                            Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Robert Houdart Wed Jul 11, 2012 9:35 pm
                                                            Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Vincent Diepeveen Thu Jul 12, 2012 10:06 am
                                                                  Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Lucas Braesch Thu Jul 12, 2012 11:26 am
                                                                        Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Vincent Diepeveen Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:03 pm
                                                                              Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Uri Blass Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:56 pm
                                                                              Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Lucas Braesch Thu Jul 12, 2012 3:24 pm
                                                                                    Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Vincent Diepeveen Thu Jul 12, 2012 9:09 pm
                                                                                          Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Lucas Braesch Fri Jul 13, 2012 3:59 am
                                                                                          Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Thomas Petzke Fri Jul 13, 2012 6:58 am
                                                                  Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Larry Kaufman Fri Jul 13, 2012 4:20 pm
                                                                        Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Vincent Diepeveen Fri Jul 13, 2012 6:00 pm
                                                Re: Programmer code of honor (update) H.G.Muller Wed Jul 11, 2012 5:59 pm
                                    Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Dan Honeycutt Wed Jul 11, 2012 7:58 pm
                                    Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Larry Kaufman Wed Jul 11, 2012 8:33 pm
                                          Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Robert Houdart Wed Jul 11, 2012 9:32 pm
                                          Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Dan Honeycutt Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:03 am
                                                Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Eelco de Groot Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:51 am
                                                      Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Dan Honeycutt Thu Jul 12, 2012 2:41 am
                                                            Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Rolf Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:28 pm
                                          Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Adam Hair Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:38 am
                                    Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Ed Schroder Thu Jul 12, 2012 9:04 am
                                    Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Rolf Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:12 pm
            Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Robert Houdart Thu Jul 05, 2012 11:07 pm
                  Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Don Dailey Fri Jul 06, 2012 12:18 am
                  Re: Programmer code of honor (update) H.G.Muller Sat Jul 07, 2012 10:45 am
                        Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Richard Vida Sat Jul 07, 2012 11:48 am
                              Re: Programmer code of honor (update) H.G.Muller Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:27 pm
                              Re: Programmer code of honor (update) OFF_TOPIC Alcides Schulz Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:39 pm
      Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Vincent Lejeune Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:25 am
            Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Ed Schroder Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:41 am
                  Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Vincent Lejeune Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:51 am
                        Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Ed Schroder Mon Jul 09, 2012 11:10 am
      Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Matthew Hull Fri Jul 13, 2012 5:56 am
            Re: Programmer code of honor (update) Sune Fischer Fri Jul 13, 2012 7:01 am
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