Toga II 3.0 released

[carldaman]

Hi Jerry, thanks for sharing the new Toga 3.0, but this new version won't run on my x64 Win7 system (it gives an APPCRASH error). The recently released Toga Returns ran fine, however, as do all the other engines I have. I'm totally mystified as to what could be different that's causing this problem.

Do you plan any x64 releases? Even if not faster, they may run well on x64 machines...

Regards,
Carl

[jd1]

Hi Jerry, thanks for sharing the new Toga 3.0, but this new version won't run on my x64 Win7 system (it gives an APPCRASH error). The recently released Toga Returns ran fine, however, as do all the other engines I have. I'm totally mystified as to what could be different that's causing this problem.

Do you plan any x64 releases? Even if not faster, they may run well on x64 machines...

Regards,
Carl

Hi Carl,

Thanks for your message. Actually I run it on x64 Win7 here with no problems. Maybe Jim will know more about this than I do?

I'm not sure an x64 build is more likely to work, but I'll ask those who know more than me.

Edit: Maybe the downloaded file was corrupted in transmission? Could you try downloading it again?

Regards,
Jerry

[carldaman]

Hi Jerry, thanks for sharing the new Toga 3.0, but this new version won't run on my x64 Win7 system (it gives an APPCRASH error). The recently released Toga Returns ran fine, however, as do all the other engines I have. I'm totally mystified as to what could be different that's causing this problem.

Do you plan any x64 releases? Even if not faster, they may run well on x64 machines...

Regards,
Carl

Hi Carl,

Thanks for your message. Actually I run it on x64 Win7 here with no problems. Maybe Jim will know more about this than I do?

I'm not sure an x64 build is more likely to work, but I'll ask those who know more than me.

Edit: Maybe the downloaded file was corrupted in transmission? Could you try downloading it again?

Regards,
Jerry

It is not the download, for sure. Actually, the only Toga versions I can run are the latest Toga Returns 1.1 and the older Toga II 3.1.2SE-JA. I get the same crash for all the others, including v3.0 -- this may suggest the problem is inherited somehow.

Thanks for responding - I hope there is a fix
CL

[geots]

I think that it is possible to get conclusions based on 150 games against a single opponent and the question is what are the conclusions.

A program may perform better against one opponent because of playing style but there is a limit for it.

If I see for example result like 120-30 I can be practically sure that the winner is better.
If I see for example result like 90-60 I cannot be practically sure that the winner is better but I can be practically sure that the winner is not more than 100 elo worse than the loser.

These conclusions are based on common sense and previous experience and I was relatively careful here.

I believe that there is no single practical case when A score even 70% against B in 150 games when A score worse than B against C.

Note that C should have a similiar rating to the average of A and B(not more than 100 elo difference).

If you think that I am wrong then I would like to see a single case including the names of the programs A,B,C so everybody can reproduce the results(with possible small differences).

Note that I do not claim that it is impossible to build programs A,B,C when it happens but only that it practically does not happen.

I have no idea why people are so nitpicking. Your example of 70% is about 150 Elo difference (or 105 to 45 in a 150 game match) while in the given case we have a 50 Elo difference.
So yes, there are case where you can draw conclusions,
1. Where you know the result in advance and
2. Where you have differences which are huge.

The Toga example shows quite nice a shown 50 Elo difference is in reality 0 and that goes in both directions. Where Toga underperformed roughly 70 Elo against Zappa it overperformed ~40 Elo vs Chiron. If you guys are happy with a 150 Elo (70%) accuracy, than fine you can draw conclusions, for myself this is not good enough.

Best
Ingo

EDIT: All the data of the IPON is online, you can search for any best/worst perfomance there, and I am sure there are examples with more than 116 Elo ... (Toga will be updated in a few hours)

All you are doing is quoting statistical data, which is fine. But you can memorize that and never test an engine in your life. So you are also good at rote memorization or typing from a copy. I do think as testers go, you are pretty much ok. My only problem with you is you maybe talk a bit too much about your abilities. But I don't really care about that either. Except in the area of testing, you have a habit of talking down to people. You picked the wrong one here. As a tester- NOBODY BUT NOBODY does that to me. I am at worst your peer- not your student.


?????????

[geots]

Hi Jerry, thanks for sharing the new Toga 3.0, but this new version won't run on my x64 Win7 system (it gives an APPCRASH error). The recently released Toga Returns ran fine, however, as do all the other engines I have. I'm totally mystified as to what could be different that's causing this problem.

Do you plan any x64 releases? Even if not faster, they may run well on x64 machines...

Regards,
Carl

Hi Carl,

Thanks for your message. Actually I run it on x64 Win7 here with no problems. Maybe Jim will know more about this than I do?

I'm not sure an x64 build is more likely to work, but I'll ask those who know more than me.

Edit: Maybe the downloaded file was corrupted in transmission? Could you try downloading it again?

Regards,
Jerry

It is not the download, for sure. Actually, the only Toga versions I can run are the latest Toga Returns 1.1 and the older Toga II 3.1.2SE-JA. I get the same crash for all the others, including v3.0 -- this may suggest the problem is inherited somehow.

Thanks for responding - I hope there is a fix
CL

The fix may have to come from your end. Reason I say that, I am running Win 7 64-bit and 2, 4-core i5s. I can run this version with no problems. In fact, there is not a Toga version or compile that gives me a problem. At least the other 28 I tried.

I might could help you isolate your problem if I had a lot more info- for starters, the gui you are using.


Best,

george

[Jim Ablett]

Hi Jerry, thanks for sharing the new Toga 3.0, but this new version won't run on my x64 Win7 system (it gives an APPCRASH error). The recently released Toga Returns ran fine, however, as do all the other engines I have. I'm totally mystified as to what could be different that's causing this problem.

Do you plan any x64 releases? Even if not faster, they may run well on x64 machines...

Regards,
Carl

Hi Carl,

Thanks for your message. Actually I run it on x64 Win7 here with no problems. Maybe Jim will know more about this than I do?

I'm not sure an x64 build is more likely to work, but I'll ask those who know more than me.

Edit: Maybe the downloaded file was corrupted in transmission? Could you try downloading it again?

Regards,
Jerry

It is not the download, for sure. Actually, the only Toga versions I can run are the latest Toga Returns 1.1 and the older Toga II 3.1.2SE-JA. I get the same crash for all the others, including v3.0 -- this may suggest the problem is inherited somehow.

Thanks for responding - I hope there is a fix
CL

The difference is some are compiled with Intel compiler and some with GCC.
Your system seems to have an issue with my Intel builds. Maybe it is your antivirus not letting it run correctly.

Here is a GCC build.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/5047625/toga-30-32-gcc-ja.zip

It runs slightly slower on my old 32 bit AMD computer, but will vary system to system I suspect. >

Code: Select all

TOGA 3.0  Win32 GCC/Mingw32  = 422 k/nps

TOGA 3.0  Win32    Intel     = 460 k/nps

Jim.

[carldaman]

Hi Jerry, thanks for sharing the new Toga 3.0, but this new version won't run on my x64 Win7 system (it gives an APPCRASH error). The recently released Toga Returns ran fine, however, as do all the other engines I have. I'm totally mystified as to what could be different that's causing this problem.

Do you plan any x64 releases? Even if not faster, they may run well on x64 machines...

Regards,
Carl

Hi Carl,

Thanks for your message. Actually I run it on x64 Win7 here with no problems. Maybe Jim will know more about this than I do?

I'm not sure an x64 build is more likely to work, but I'll ask those who know more than me.

Edit: Maybe the downloaded file was corrupted in transmission? Could you try downloading it again?

Regards,
Jerry

It is not the download, for sure. Actually, the only Toga versions I can run are the latest Toga Returns 1.1 and the older Toga II 3.1.2SE-JA. I get the same crash for all the others, including v3.0 -- this may suggest the problem is inherited somehow.

Thanks for responding - I hope there is a fix
CL

The fix may have to come from your end. Reason I say that, I am running Win 7 64-bit and 2, 4-core i5s. I can run this version with no problems. In fact, there is not a Toga version or compile that gives me a problem. At least the other 28 I tried.

I might could help you isolate your problem if I had a lot more info- for starters, the gui you are using.


Best,

george

Thanks, George -- some other engines will work well in one GUI but not in another. Homer had problems with Fritz, but worked well otherwise; Grapefruit was glitchy, except if run in the Fritz GUI. -- a couple of examples that come to mind.

Toga, other than those versions I mentioned earlier, is the only engine that refuses to work across the board. The problem may be indeed related to my system. I'm still hoping there is a Toga 3.0 build that works for me, but things are looking rough right now.

Regards,
CL

[carldaman]

Hi Jerry, thanks for sharing the new Toga 3.0, but this new version won't run on my x64 Win7 system (it gives an APPCRASH error). The recently released Toga Returns ran fine, however, as do all the other engines I have. I'm totally mystified as to what could be different that's causing this problem.

Do you plan any x64 releases? Even if not faster, they may run well on x64 machines...

Regards,
Carl

Hi Carl,

Thanks for your message. Actually I run it on x64 Win7 here with no problems. Maybe Jim will know more about this than I do?

I'm not sure an x64 build is more likely to work, but I'll ask those who know more than me.

Edit: Maybe the downloaded file was corrupted in transmission? Could you try downloading it again?

Regards,
Jerry

It is not the download, for sure. Actually, the only Toga versions I can run are the latest Toga Returns 1.1 and the older Toga II 3.1.2SE-JA. I get the same crash for all the others, including v3.0 -- this may suggest the problem is inherited somehow.

Thanks for responding - I hope there is a fix
CL

The difference is some are compiled with Intel compiler and some with GCC.
Your system seems to have an issue with my Intel builds. Maybe it is your antivirus not letting it run correctly.

Here is a GCC build.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/5047625/toga-30-32-gcc-ja.zip

It runs slightly slower on my old 32 bit AMD computer, but will vary system to system I suspect. >

Code: Select all

TOGA 3.0  Win32 GCC/Mingw32  = 422 k/nps

TOGA 3.0  Win32    Intel     = 460 k/nps

Jim.

Hi Jim, thanks for providing the alternate build, but the problem persists. I think Toga is the only compile/build of yours that I've had trouble with, although Toga Returns 1.1_JA and Toga-312SE-JA both work fine.

Also, Cyclone (another Fruit/Toga derivative) will crash and not run on my x64 i3 Win7 system. I can run Grapefruit_x64, but it only runs well in Fritz. Older/original versions of Fruit work well.

The problem remains a mystery, but out of hundreds of engines only Toga has been giving me problems with no workaround found yet.

Regards,
CL

[Tennison]

Dear Carl,

Here is a personal compile I made. It's one I use for tests.

It's not an optimized one but normally completely working on all Windows operating systems.

The only change to official release is I disabled Endgame Bitbase.

Toga II 3.0 (no bitbases)

[carldaman]

Dear Carl,

Here is a personal compile I made. It's one I use for tests.

It's not an optimized one but normally completely working on all Windows operating systems.

The only change to official release is I disabled Endgame Bitbase.

Toga II 3.0 (no bitbases)

Thanks a lot for taking the trouble, Ben - I don't know how, but you've come thru with this one
Your version works just fine, even if not optimized!
Could be the disabled bitbases that took away the bug?! Or something else?
I'll run some tests with it to compare it to Toga Returns.

Regards,
Carl