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Redundant knight
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H.G.Muller



Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 21997
Location: Amsterdam

PostPost subject: Re: Redundant knight    Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 4:01 pm Reply to topic Reply with quote

Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:
I think we agreed that 3 queens do better vs 7 knights than against 3 knights and 4 bishops.

'We' as in referring to yourself, I suppose, because I never agreed to any such thing.

Quote:
There was sufficient game evidence for that. Jerry Donald also posted that 7 bishops perform better than 7 knights vs 3 queens.

I don't think this can be based on anything, as to my knowledge there doesn't exist any engine equipped with an evaluation that understands this end-game. It seems very easy for the Queens to draw against 7 Bishops: just sacrifice the Queens one on one against the Bishops on the minority color, and the remaining 4 Bishops have no mating potential. But engines not aware of that fact would of course never attempt it.

Quote:
It is also about pawn spread, but in 80-90% of cases pawns will be spread on both wings, so this is the natural state of things. Having pawns just on one wing is an exception. With pawn spread on both wings, 2 knights perform even worse than a single knight, so redundancy is felt.

Grouping things together that need different treatment is a very bad idea. Evaluations must be precise and accurate, if you want an engine to ever rise above the level of micro-Max. An engine that cannot see the difference between the 10-20% where having Knights is good and the 80-90% where having them is bad, will almost always be suckered by an opponent that does know that difference into the 10-20%. The 10-20% is only "the natural state of things" when both players are aware of the difference. It won't remain so when one of the players is ignorant.

I have seen that in my Xiangqi engine. When it did not know the rules for perpetual chasing, only 1.5 of the games ended in a perpetual chase (declared a loss by the GUI). So I figured perpetual chasing was too rare to worry about it. But once I programmed the engine to recognize it, playing against the version that didn't resulted in 18% of the games being won by perpetual chasing. Because the engine that did know about it just suckered the engine that didn't into chasing him.
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Subject Author Date/Time
Redundant knight Lyudmil Tsvetkov Fri Jun 20, 2014 10:38 am
      Re: Redundant knight H.G.Muller Fri Jun 20, 2014 11:03 am
            Re: Redundant knight Lyudmil Tsvetkov Fri Jun 20, 2014 11:54 am
                  Re: Redundant knight H.G.Muller Fri Jun 20, 2014 4:01 pm
      Re: Redundant knight Lucas Braesch Fri Jun 20, 2014 11:21 am
            Re: Redundant knight Lyudmil Tsvetkov Fri Jun 20, 2014 12:03 pm
      Re: Redundant knight Lyudmil Tsvetkov Fri Jun 20, 2014 11:37 am
      Re: Redundant knight Louis Zulli Fri Jun 20, 2014 11:50 am
            Re: Redundant knight Lyudmil Tsvetkov Fri Jun 20, 2014 12:13 pm
                  Re: Redundant knight Lyudmil Tsvetkov Fri Jun 20, 2014 12:36 pm
                        Thanks Louis Zulli Fri Jun 20, 2014 1:27 pm
                              Re: Thanks Lyudmil Tsvetkov Fri Jun 20, 2014 2:09 pm
                                    Re: Thanks Arjun Temurnikar Fri Jun 20, 2014 2:32 pm
                                    Re: Thanks Louis Zulli Fri Jun 20, 2014 4:12 pm
                                    Re: Thanks Louis Zulli Fri Jun 20, 2014 4:21 pm
                                          Re: Thanks Lyudmil Tsvetkov Fri Jun 20, 2014 4:30 pm
                                    Re: Thanks Robert Hyatt Sat Jun 21, 2014 2:51 am
                                          Re: Thanks Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Jun 21, 2014 6:53 am
      Re: Redundant knight Arjun Temurnikar Fri Jun 20, 2014 1:41 pm
            Re: Redundant knight Lyudmil Tsvetkov Fri Jun 20, 2014 2:26 pm
                  Re: Redundant knight Arjun Temurnikar Fri Jun 20, 2014 3:03 pm
                        Re: Redundant knight Lyudmil Tsvetkov Fri Jun 20, 2014 3:40 pm
                              Re: Redundant knight Arjun Temurnikar Fri Jun 20, 2014 4:43 pm
            Re: Redundant knight Joerg Oster Fri Jun 20, 2014 2:33 pm
                  Re: Redundant knight Lyudmil Tsvetkov Fri Jun 20, 2014 3:12 pm
                        Re: Redundant knight Arjun Temurnikar Fri Jun 20, 2014 3:19 pm
                              Re: Redundant knight Arjun Temurnikar Fri Jun 20, 2014 3:35 pm
                                    Re: Redundant knight Lyudmil Tsvetkov Fri Jun 20, 2014 3:51 pm
                                    Re: Redundant knight Lucas Braesch Fri Jun 20, 2014 6:47 pm
                                          Re: Redundant knight Arjun Temurnikar Fri Jun 20, 2014 7:23 pm
                                                Re: Redundant knight Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Jun 21, 2014 1:31 am
                                                      Re: Redundant knight Bernhard Bauer Sat Jun 21, 2014 5:31 am
                                                            Re: Redundant knight Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Jun 21, 2014 6:57 am
                                                      Re: Redundant knight H.G.Muller Sat Jun 21, 2014 7:54 am
                                                            Re: Redundant knight Matthew R. Brades Sat Jun 21, 2014 8:04 am
                                                                  Re: Redundant knight Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Jun 21, 2014 8:57 am
                                                            Re: Redundant knight Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Jun 21, 2014 8:48 am
                                                                  Re: Redundant knight H.G.Muller Sat Jun 21, 2014 9:19 am
                                                                        Re: Redundant knight Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Jun 21, 2014 10:00 am
      Re: Redundant knight Bernhard Bauer Sat Jun 21, 2014 5:22 am
            Re: Redundant knight Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Jun 21, 2014 7:07 am
                  Re: Redundant knight Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Jun 21, 2014 9:30 am
                        Re: Redundant knight H.G.Muller Sat Jun 21, 2014 9:45 am
                              Re: Redundant knight Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Jun 21, 2014 10:21 am
                                    Re: Redundant knight H.G.Muller Sat Jun 21, 2014 11:31 am
                                          Re: Redundant knight Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Jun 21, 2014 11:38 am
                                          Re: Redundant knight Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Jun 21, 2014 11:38 am
                                                Re: Redundant knight H.G.Muller Sat Jun 21, 2014 11:52 am
                                                      Re: Redundant knight Arjun Temurnikar Sat Jun 21, 2014 2:23 pm
                              Re: Redundant knight Kevin Hearn Sat Jun 21, 2014 10:30 am
                                    Re: Redundant knight Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Jun 21, 2014 11:16 am
                                          Re: Redundant bishop Bernhard Bauer Sat Jun 21, 2014 11:36 am
                                                Re: Redundant bishop Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Jun 21, 2014 12:10 pm
                                                      Re: Redundant bishop H.G.Muller Sat Jun 21, 2014 12:16 pm
                                          Re: Redundant knight Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Jun 21, 2014 11:59 am
                                                Re: Redundant knight Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Jun 21, 2014 12:58 pm
                                          Re: Redundant knight H.G.Muller Sat Jun 21, 2014 12:11 pm
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