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Redundant knight
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Lyudmil Tsvetkov



Joined: 12 Jun 2012
Posts: 6031

PostPost subject: Re: Redundant knight    Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 11:16 am Reply to topic Reply with quote

kbhearn wrote:
I haven't actually looked at it with an engine but i doubt his position would be terribly interesting, he has rather intentionally put black's pieces in position to emphasize their redundancy (many tempos to get them to a better position) while leaving black's king naked and white's pieces well positioned to take advantage of it... (all penetration points covered, simply f3 and Qh4 to start provoking pawn weaknesses) Which is to say, the position doesn't demonstrate the need for a general redundancy penalty at all with the pieces so out of position.

More generally, the concept of a redundant knight in human chess does not merely refer to having two knights, but rather two knights with only one good tour for them, seldom is the ideal position for the knights a position where they're protecting each other (only when it's to get one of them to a key deep square without being traded).

I think it'd be a complicated term to design however (as would knight on a bad tour, something that's irked me before in computer analysis that they don't understand) as it would involve a whole-pawn structure analysis to find 'good' tours and when the structure is fluid it could be very deceiving.


Actually, this is the most equilibrated position possible, as equilibrated as one could think of with this material configuration. The bishops guard the penetration squares on first and second rank, but black already has a rook on an open file (is not this an advantage?), the black knights are defended, Nb5 is supported by a pawn (is not this an advantage?), the rooks are connected.

But I would be happy if you present another position with the same imbalance to judge upon it.

Actually, there is nothing easier than implementing redundancy: you just count if there are repeating pieces, and if so, assign a penalty. Then tune it until it starts working.

Interesting what Harm will say about the below draw:

[d]6k1/8/8/8/8/3NN3/8/6K1 w - - 0 1
   ::    ::    :: BK ::
::    ::    ::    ::    
   ::    ::    ::    ::
::    ::    ::    ::    
   ::    ::    ::    ::
::    :: WN WN    ::    
   ::    ::    ::    ::
::    ::    ::    WK    

So why 2 white knights, 6 full pawns material advantage, are unable to win against a lone king? There is no pawn span there, no major pieces to excuse that knights get weaker with less pawns, but rooks stronger, absolutely nothing. Why is white not able to win this?

Well, the answer is very simple, because the knights are redundant, even more so in the absence of any other pieces.
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Subject Author Date/Time
Redundant knight Lyudmil Tsvetkov Fri Jun 20, 2014 10:38 am
      Re: Redundant knight H.G.Muller Fri Jun 20, 2014 11:03 am
            Re: Redundant knight Lyudmil Tsvetkov Fri Jun 20, 2014 11:54 am
                  Re: Redundant knight H.G.Muller Fri Jun 20, 2014 4:01 pm
      Re: Redundant knight Lucas Braesch Fri Jun 20, 2014 11:21 am
            Re: Redundant knight Lyudmil Tsvetkov Fri Jun 20, 2014 12:03 pm
      Re: Redundant knight Lyudmil Tsvetkov Fri Jun 20, 2014 11:37 am
      Re: Redundant knight Louis Zulli Fri Jun 20, 2014 11:50 am
            Re: Redundant knight Lyudmil Tsvetkov Fri Jun 20, 2014 12:13 pm
                  Re: Redundant knight Lyudmil Tsvetkov Fri Jun 20, 2014 12:36 pm
                        Thanks Louis Zulli Fri Jun 20, 2014 1:27 pm
                              Re: Thanks Lyudmil Tsvetkov Fri Jun 20, 2014 2:09 pm
                                    Re: Thanks Arjun Temurnikar Fri Jun 20, 2014 2:32 pm
                                    Re: Thanks Louis Zulli Fri Jun 20, 2014 4:12 pm
                                    Re: Thanks Louis Zulli Fri Jun 20, 2014 4:21 pm
                                          Re: Thanks Lyudmil Tsvetkov Fri Jun 20, 2014 4:30 pm
                                    Re: Thanks Robert Hyatt Sat Jun 21, 2014 2:51 am
                                          Re: Thanks Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Jun 21, 2014 6:53 am
      Re: Redundant knight Arjun Temurnikar Fri Jun 20, 2014 1:41 pm
            Re: Redundant knight Lyudmil Tsvetkov Fri Jun 20, 2014 2:26 pm
                  Re: Redundant knight Arjun Temurnikar Fri Jun 20, 2014 3:03 pm
                        Re: Redundant knight Lyudmil Tsvetkov Fri Jun 20, 2014 3:40 pm
                              Re: Redundant knight Arjun Temurnikar Fri Jun 20, 2014 4:43 pm
            Re: Redundant knight Joerg Oster Fri Jun 20, 2014 2:33 pm
                  Re: Redundant knight Lyudmil Tsvetkov Fri Jun 20, 2014 3:12 pm
                        Re: Redundant knight Arjun Temurnikar Fri Jun 20, 2014 3:19 pm
                              Re: Redundant knight Arjun Temurnikar Fri Jun 20, 2014 3:35 pm
                                    Re: Redundant knight Lyudmil Tsvetkov Fri Jun 20, 2014 3:51 pm
                                    Re: Redundant knight Lucas Braesch Fri Jun 20, 2014 6:47 pm
                                          Re: Redundant knight Arjun Temurnikar Fri Jun 20, 2014 7:23 pm
                                                Re: Redundant knight Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Jun 21, 2014 1:31 am
                                                      Re: Redundant knight Bernhard Bauer Sat Jun 21, 2014 5:31 am
                                                            Re: Redundant knight Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Jun 21, 2014 6:57 am
                                                      Re: Redundant knight H.G.Muller Sat Jun 21, 2014 7:54 am
                                                            Re: Redundant knight Matthew R. Brades Sat Jun 21, 2014 8:04 am
                                                                  Re: Redundant knight Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Jun 21, 2014 8:57 am
                                                            Re: Redundant knight Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Jun 21, 2014 8:48 am
                                                                  Re: Redundant knight H.G.Muller Sat Jun 21, 2014 9:19 am
                                                                        Re: Redundant knight Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Jun 21, 2014 10:00 am
      Re: Redundant knight Bernhard Bauer Sat Jun 21, 2014 5:22 am
            Re: Redundant knight Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Jun 21, 2014 7:07 am
                  Re: Redundant knight Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Jun 21, 2014 9:30 am
                        Re: Redundant knight H.G.Muller Sat Jun 21, 2014 9:45 am
                              Re: Redundant knight Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Jun 21, 2014 10:21 am
                                    Re: Redundant knight H.G.Muller Sat Jun 21, 2014 11:31 am
                                          Re: Redundant knight Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Jun 21, 2014 11:38 am
                                          Re: Redundant knight Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Jun 21, 2014 11:38 am
                                                Re: Redundant knight H.G.Muller Sat Jun 21, 2014 11:52 am
                                                      Re: Redundant knight Arjun Temurnikar Sat Jun 21, 2014 2:23 pm
                              Re: Redundant knight Kevin Hearn Sat Jun 21, 2014 10:30 am
                                    Re: Redundant knight Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Jun 21, 2014 11:16 am
                                          Re: Redundant bishop Bernhard Bauer Sat Jun 21, 2014 11:36 am
                                                Re: Redundant bishop Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Jun 21, 2014 12:10 pm
                                                      Re: Redundant bishop H.G.Muller Sat Jun 21, 2014 12:16 pm
                                          Re: Redundant knight Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Jun 21, 2014 11:59 am
                                                Re: Redundant knight Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Jun 21, 2014 12:58 pm
                                          Re: Redundant knight H.G.Muller Sat Jun 21, 2014 12:11 pm
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