Komodo knight odd match vs FM Victor Bolzoni : report

[thekingman]

What games are tomorrow? Our next scheduled match is about two weeks from now.

From the first post of this thread:

2nd day of the match will be next Sunday for the 3 last games. We try to begin 1 hour sooner and I'll look to use the Chessbase interface to avoid all this troubles.

Unless plans changed or I missed something, we should be in for three more knight odds games today!

next sunday was already a week ago

This is the thread of the 4th game and there were threads for the 5th game and the 6th game.

http://www.talkchess.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=57125

Oh, I thought last weekend would have been referred to as "this Sunday" at the time of the original post. Thanks for pointing me at the right threads.

[Vinvin]

What games are tomorrow? Our next scheduled match is about two weeks from now.

From the first post of this thread:

2nd day of the match will be next Sunday for the 3 last games. We try to begin 1 hour sooner and I'll look to use the Chessbase interface to avoid all this troubles.

Unless plans changed or I missed something, we should be in for three more knight odds games today!

The 3 last games have been played last weeks, see here :
http://www.talkchess.com/forum/viewtopi ... ht=bolzoni
http://www.talkchess.com/forum/viewtopi ... ht=bolzoni
http://www.talkchess.com/forum/viewtopi ... ht=bolzoni

[Uri Blass]

[Event "Stockfish vs Crafty 9 moves odds"]
[White "Crafty-23.4-win32"]
[Black "Stockfish-6-sse42"]
[Result "0-1"]

1. Nf3 Nf6 2. g3 Ng8 3. Bg2 Nf6 4. O-O Ng8 5. e4 Nf6 6. d3 Ng8 7. Be3 Nf6 8.
Nbd2 Ng8

Engines started on move 9

[Event "Stockfish vs Crafty Kd5 and move odds"]
[White "Stockfish-6-sse42"]
[Black "Crafty-23.4-win32"]
[Result "1-0"]

1. e3 Nf6 2. Ke2 Ng4 3. Kf3 Nh6 4. Ke4 Ng8 5. Kd5 Nc6
Engines started on move 6

Both starting positions are arguably even more advantageous than knight odds, yet Stockfish won them both. Could a human do better? It would be an exciting match, that's for sure! So the next time anyone runs a human vs computer odds match, I would like to humbly request that you consider similar initiative odds rather than only pure material odds.

Just for the record I disagree that both start positions are even more advantageous than Knight odds.
I would say the advantage is slightly less than two pawns. What advantage would Komodo 9 or newer give here?
(I wouldn't trust Stockfish here BTW, because its eval always adds too much for mobility and development in the early stage of a game, but that is known.)

Guenther

Stockfish does not claim that the advantage is more than a knight.

In both positions it does not give more than 2 pawns for the stronger side.

[Laskos]

[Event "Stockfish vs Crafty 9 moves odds"]
[White "Crafty-23.4-win32"]
[Black "Stockfish-6-sse42"]
[Result "0-1"]

1. Nf3 Nf6 2. g3 Ng8 3. Bg2 Nf6 4. O-O Ng8 5. e4 Nf6 6. d3 Ng8 7. Be3 Nf6 8.
Nbd2 Ng8

Engines started on move 9

[Event "Stockfish vs Crafty Kd5 and move odds"]
[White "Stockfish-6-sse42"]
[Black "Crafty-23.4-win32"]
[Result "1-0"]

1. e3 Nf6 2. Ke2 Ng4 3. Kf3 Nh6 4. Ke4 Ng8 5. Kd5 Nc6
Engines started on move 6

Both starting positions are arguably even more advantageous than knight odds, yet Stockfish won them both. Could a human do better? It would be an exciting match, that's for sure! So the next time anyone runs a human vs computer odds match, I would like to humbly request that you consider similar initiative odds rather than only pure material odds.

Just for the record I disagree that both start positions are even more advantageous than Knight odds.
I would say the advantage is slightly less than two pawns. What advantage would Komodo 9 or newer give here?
(I wouldn't trust Stockfish here BTW, because its eval always adds too much for mobility and development in the early stage of a game, but that is known.)

Guenther

Stockfish does not claim that the advantage is more than a knight.

In both positions it does not give more than 2 pawns for the stronger side.

Neither does Komodo, it gives less than 2 important pawns and a bit more than f7 pawn. However, maximum achievement in 8 moves (not beyond 4th rank) is almost twice as large, somewhere at 3 pawns, between 2 important pawns and a knight. This 8-mover position
[D]rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/2PPPP2/2NB1N2/PP4PP/R1BQ1RK1 w kq - 0 1[/D] is evaluated by Komodo at +3.15 on my lowly netbook after 6 minutes, with e5 best move. Without any handicap games testing, it's apparently some 1000 ELO points handicap. The rule of thumb seems to be a bit more than 100 ELO points for each available additional move of his choice to GM. I don't see how to prepare Komodo against repeated opening "scheme" of GM if the moves are at his choice. Maybe it's better to start with a set of strong N-mover positions, say N=6 in case of a 2500 GM, similar to the strong one shown for 8 moves.

These are very interesting "initiative" handicaps, maybe with two small snags. First, it's harder to assess for the general public the value of the handicap, compared to say 2 pawns. Second, if successful for Komodo, one can argue that engines are pretty dumb and materialistic, they have difficulty overcoming material disadvantages, as shown in the previous 2 matches, but they don't care too much about positional asymmetries.

[Uri Blass]

[Event "Stockfish vs Crafty 9 moves odds"]
[White "Crafty-23.4-win32"]
[Black "Stockfish-6-sse42"]
[Result "0-1"]

1. Nf3 Nf6 2. g3 Ng8 3. Bg2 Nf6 4. O-O Ng8 5. e4 Nf6 6. d3 Ng8 7. Be3 Nf6 8.
Nbd2 Ng8

Engines started on move 9

[Event "Stockfish vs Crafty Kd5 and move odds"]
[White "Stockfish-6-sse42"]
[Black "Crafty-23.4-win32"]
[Result "1-0"]

1. e3 Nf6 2. Ke2 Ng4 3. Kf3 Nh6 4. Ke4 Ng8 5. Kd5 Nc6
Engines started on move 6

Both starting positions are arguably even more advantageous than knight odds, yet Stockfish won them both. Could a human do better? It would be an exciting match, that's for sure! So the next time anyone runs a human vs computer odds match, I would like to humbly request that you consider similar initiative odds rather than only pure material odds.

Just for the record I disagree that both start positions are even more advantageous than Knight odds.
I would say the advantage is slightly less than two pawns. What advantage would Komodo 9 or newer give here?
(I wouldn't trust Stockfish here BTW, because its eval always adds too much for mobility and development in the early stage of a game, but that is known.)

Guenther

Stockfish does not claim that the advantage is more than a knight.

In both positions it does not give more than 2 pawns for the stronger side.

Neither does Komodo, it gives less than 2 important pawns and a bit more than f7 pawn. However, maximum achievement in 8 moves (not beyond 4th rank) is almost twice as large, somewhere at 3 pawns, between 2 important pawns and a knight. This 8-mover position
[D]rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/2PPPP2/2NB1N2/PP4PP/R1BQ1RK1 w kq - 0 1[/D] is evaluated by Komodo at +3.15 on my lowly netbook after 6 minutes, with e5 best move. Without any handicap games testing, it's apparently some 1000 ELO points handicap. The rule of thumb seems to be a bit more than 100 ELO points for each available additional move of his choice to GM. I don't see how to prepare Komodo against repeated opening "scheme" of GM if the moves are at his choice. Maybe it's better to start with a set of strong N-mover positions, say N=6 in case of a 2500 GM, similar to the strong one shown for 8 moves.

These are very interesting "initiative" handicaps, maybe with two small snags. First, it's harder to assess for the general public the value of the handicap, compared to say 2 pawns. Second, if successful for Komodo, one can argue that engines are pretty dumb and materialistic, they have difficulty overcoming material disadvantages, as shown in the previous 2 matches, but they don't care too much about positional asymmetries.

If komodo wins then
I do not see how it means that chess engines are materialistic.

I see no reason that materialistic chess engines will do better with initiative handicap.

The fact that some engine is materialistic is not going to help it to defend better against strong initiative.

Maybe it is the opposite and the materialistic engine is not going to be ready to sacrifice material that may be the best defence in some line.

[Laskos]

[Event "Stockfish vs Crafty 9 moves odds"]
[White "Crafty-23.4-win32"]
[Black "Stockfish-6-sse42"]
[Result "0-1"]

1. Nf3 Nf6 2. g3 Ng8 3. Bg2 Nf6 4. O-O Ng8 5. e4 Nf6 6. d3 Ng8 7. Be3 Nf6 8.
Nbd2 Ng8

Engines started on move 9

[Event "Stockfish vs Crafty Kd5 and move odds"]
[White "Stockfish-6-sse42"]
[Black "Crafty-23.4-win32"]
[Result "1-0"]

1. e3 Nf6 2. Ke2 Ng4 3. Kf3 Nh6 4. Ke4 Ng8 5. Kd5 Nc6
Engines started on move 6

Both starting positions are arguably even more advantageous than knight odds, yet Stockfish won them both. Could a human do better? It would be an exciting match, that's for sure! So the next time anyone runs a human vs computer odds match, I would like to humbly request that you consider similar initiative odds rather than only pure material odds.

Just for the record I disagree that both start positions are even more advantageous than Knight odds.
I would say the advantage is slightly less than two pawns. What advantage would Komodo 9 or newer give here?
(I wouldn't trust Stockfish here BTW, because its eval always adds too much for mobility and development in the early stage of a game, but that is known.)

Guenther

Stockfish does not claim that the advantage is more than a knight.

In both positions it does not give more than 2 pawns for the stronger side.

Neither does Komodo, it gives less than 2 important pawns and a bit more than f7 pawn. However, maximum achievement in 8 moves (not beyond 4th rank) is almost twice as large, somewhere at 3 pawns, between 2 important pawns and a knight. This 8-mover position
[D]rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/2PPPP2/2NB1N2/PP4PP/R1BQ1RK1 w kq - 0 1[/D] is evaluated by Komodo at +3.15 on my lowly netbook after 6 minutes, with e5 best move. Without any handicap games testing, it's apparently some 1000 ELO points handicap. The rule of thumb seems to be a bit more than 100 ELO points for each available additional move of his choice to GM. I don't see how to prepare Komodo against repeated opening "scheme" of GM if the moves are at his choice. Maybe it's better to start with a set of strong N-mover positions, say N=6 in case of a 2500 GM, similar to the strong one shown for 8 moves.

These are very interesting "initiative" handicaps, maybe with two small snags. First, it's harder to assess for the general public the value of the handicap, compared to say 2 pawns. Second, if successful for Komodo, one can argue that engines are pretty dumb and materialistic, they have difficulty overcoming material disadvantages, as shown in the previous 2 matches, but they don't care too much about positional asymmetries.

If komodo wins then
I do not see how it means that chess engines are materialistic.

I see no reason that materialistic chess engines will do better with initiative handicap.

The fact that some engine is materialistic is not going to help it to defend better against strong initiative.

Maybe it is the opposite and the materialistic engine is not going to be ready to sacrifice material that may be the best defence in some line.

I understand the reasoning, but the general public might think, in case Komodo wins convincingly, that to engines 8 moves are less important than 2 pawns.

[lkaufman]

[Neither does Komodo, it gives less than 2 important pawns and a bit more than f7 pawn. However, maximum achievement in 8 moves (not beyond 4th rank) is almost twice as large, somewhere at 3 pawns, between 2 important pawns and a knight. This 8-mover position
[D]rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/2PPPP2/2NB1N2/PP4PP/R1BQ1RK1 w kq - 0 1[/D] is evaluated by Komodo at +3.15 on my lowly netbook after 6 minutes, with e5 best move. Without any handicap games testing, it's apparently some 1000 ELO points handicap. The rule of thumb seems to be a bit more than 100 ELO points for each available additional move of his choice to GM. I don't see how to prepare Komodo against repeated opening "scheme" of GM if the moves are at his choice. Maybe it's better to start with a set of strong N-mover positions, say N=6 in case of a 2500 GM, similar to the strong one shown for 8 moves.

These are very interesting "initiative" handicaps, maybe with two small snags. First, it's harder to assess for the general public the value of the handicap, compared to say 2 pawns. Second, if successful for Komodo, one can argue that engines are pretty dumb and materialistic, they have difficulty overcoming material disadvantages, as shown in the previous 2 matches, but they don't care too much about positional asymmetries.

How did you determine that this is the maximum achievement with eight moves? I'm not saying that you are wrong, just wondered how you can be sure. With 9 moves White can get a plus 6, pretty much resignable for Black. If only the final position of the White pieces has to be in the first four ranks rather than the individual moves. White can achieve plus 6 with 8 moves.

[Laskos]

[Neither does Komodo, it gives less than 2 important pawns and a bit more than f7 pawn. However, maximum achievement in 8 moves (not beyond 4th rank) is almost twice as large, somewhere at 3 pawns, between 2 important pawns and a knight. This 8-mover position
[D]rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/2PPPP2/2NB1N2/PP4PP/R1BQ1RK1 w kq - 0 1[/D] is evaluated by Komodo at +3.15 on my lowly netbook after 6 minutes, with e5 best move. Without any handicap games testing, it's apparently some 1000 ELO points handicap. The rule of thumb seems to be a bit more than 100 ELO points for each available additional move of his choice to GM. I don't see how to prepare Komodo against repeated opening "scheme" of GM if the moves are at his choice. Maybe it's better to start with a set of strong N-mover positions, say N=6 in case of a 2500 GM, similar to the strong one shown for 8 moves.

These are very interesting "initiative" handicaps, maybe with two small snags. First, it's harder to assess for the general public the value of the handicap, compared to say 2 pawns. Second, if successful for Komodo, one can argue that engines are pretty dumb and materialistic, they have difficulty overcoming material disadvantages, as shown in the previous 2 matches, but they don't care too much about positional asymmetries.

How did you determine that this is the maximum achievement with eight moves? I'm not saying that you are wrong, just wondered how you can be sure. With 9 moves White can get a plus 6, pretty much resignable for Black. If only the final position of the White pieces has to be in the first four ranks rather than the individual moves. White can achieve plus 6 with 8 moves.

No, I should have made it clearer, this is just a guess, then, after trying several more positions, it still was the best. I have no proof whatsoever.

[Darrel Briley]

[Neither does Komodo, it gives less than 2 important pawns and a bit more than f7 pawn. However, maximum achievement in 8 moves (not beyond 4th rank) is almost twice as large, somewhere at 3 pawns, between 2 important pawns and a knight. This 8-mover position
[D]rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/2PPPP2/2NB1N2/PP4PP/R1BQ1RK1 w kq - 0 1[/D] is evaluated by Komodo at +3.15 on my lowly netbook after 6 minutes, with e5 best move. Without any handicap games testing, it's apparently some 1000 ELO points handicap. The rule of thumb seems to be a bit more than 100 ELO points for each available additional move of his choice to GM. I don't see how to prepare Komodo against repeated opening "scheme" of GM if the moves are at his choice. Maybe it's better to start with a set of strong N-mover positions, say N=6 in case of a 2500 GM, similar to the strong one shown for 8 moves.

These are very interesting "initiative" handicaps, maybe with two small snags. First, it's harder to assess for the general public the value of the handicap, compared to say 2 pawns. Second, if successful for Komodo, one can argue that engines are pretty dumb and materialistic, they have difficulty overcoming material disadvantages, as shown in the previous 2 matches, but they don't care too much about positional asymmetries.

How did you determine that this is the maximum achievement with eight moves? I'm not saying that you are wrong, just wondered how you can be sure. With 9 moves White can get a plus 6, pretty much resignable for Black. If only the final position of the White pieces has to be in the first four ranks rather than the individual moves. White can achieve plus 6 with 8 moves.

No, I should have made it clearer, this is just a guess, then, after trying several more positions, it still was the best. I have no proof whatsoever.

[D]rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/2BPPB2/2N2N2/PPP1QPPP/2KR3R w kq -

1. e4
2. d4
3. nf3
4. nc3
5. Bc4
6. Bf4
7. Qe2
8. 0-0-0

(Individual moves)

I don't have Komodo to check this postion, but it may well be 6+ already. I don't know if you specified that Bishops can't come to the 4th rank, but if they can it's over. Bxf7+ is threatened...

DB

[Darrel Briley]

[Neither does Komodo, it gives less than 2 important pawns and a bit more than f7 pawn. However, maximum achievement in 8 moves (not beyond 4th rank) is almost twice as large, somewhere at 3 pawns, between 2 important pawns and a knight. This 8-mover position
[D]rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/2PPPP2/2NB1N2/PP4PP/R1BQ1RK1 w kq - 0 1[/D] is evaluated by Komodo at +3.15 on my lowly netbook after 6 minutes, with e5 best move. Without any handicap games testing, it's apparently some 1000 ELO points handicap. The rule of thumb seems to be a bit more than 100 ELO points for each available additional move of his choice to GM. I don't see how to prepare Komodo against repeated opening "scheme" of GM if the moves are at his choice. Maybe it's better to start with a set of strong N-mover positions, say N=6 in case of a 2500 GM, similar to the strong one shown for 8 moves.

These are very interesting "initiative" handicaps, maybe with two small snags. First, it's harder to assess for the general public the value of the handicap, compared to say 2 pawns. Second, if successful for Komodo, one can argue that engines are pretty dumb and materialistic, they have difficulty overcoming material disadvantages, as shown in the previous 2 matches, but they don't care too much about positional asymmetries.

How did you determine that this is the maximum achievement with eight moves? I'm not saying that you are wrong, just wondered how you can be sure. With 9 moves White can get a plus 6, pretty much resignable for Black. If only the final position of the White pieces has to be in the first four ranks rather than the individual moves. White can achieve plus 6 with 8 moves.

No, I should have made it clearer, this is just a guess, then, after trying several more positions, it still was the best. I have no proof whatsoever.

rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/2BPPB2/2N2N2/PPP1QPPP/2KR3R w kq -

1. e4
2. d4
3. nf3
4. nc3
5. Bc4
6. Bf4
7. Qe2
8. 0-0-0

(Indivdual moves)

I don't have Komodo to check this postion, but it may well be 6+ already. I don't know if you specified that Bishops can't come to the 4th rank, but if they can it's over. Bxf7+ is threatened...

DB