Komodo knight odd match vs FM Victor Bolzoni : report

[lkaufman]

I think that what's going on is that with a development advantage you need to play sharply to fully exploit it, which favors the stronger player. So even if eight tempi (let's say) are adequate compensation for a knight, an eight move handicap requires more skill to exploit than an extra piece.
It would be very interesting to test your hypothesis that longer tc favors the attacker. If you double or quadruple your time limit we could find out. It's not obvious to me which side benefits more from longer tc, the attacker or the side with more material.

Nice, maybe that's why while time handicapped the positional advantage is harder to convert than material. I can confirm, though with difficulty on my notebook, in not very many games and only one position, that the hypothesis of longer time control favoring the attacker is valid. The games are on weak 2 cores of 1.2GHz each. When I will be back home, I may test more thoroughly.

With the previous position showing 0.00 after 10 minutes:
[d]rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/2BPPB2/2N3P1/PPP1QP1P/1K1R3R w kq - 0 1

Increasing time controls (still very fast):

Code: Select all

2.5''+0.025''
Games        :    100 (finished)

White Wins   :     34 (34.0 %)
Black Wins   :     52 (52.0 %)
Draws        :     14 (14.0 %)
Unfinished   :      0



5''+0.05''
Games        :    100 (finished)

White Wins   :     36 (36.0 %)
Black Wins   :     48 (48.0 %)
Draws        :     16 (16.0 %)
Unfinished   :      0



20''+0.2''
Games        :    100 (finished)

White Wins   :     42 (42.0 %)
Black Wins   :     37 (37.0 %)
Draws        :     21 (21.0 %)
Unfinished   :      0

At longer 20''+0.2'' the outcome already surpasses the eval of 0.00. My guess is that to longer TC it may be beneficial to even increase the importance of positional factors in Komodo. This might be a problem of all engines which have to pass first very short time control, it may harm there, but it probably scales well to longer TC.

That trend does look significant. Maybe we'll try out your idea at longer tc than we usually test at.

[Laskos]

I think that what's going on is that with a development advantage you need to play sharply to fully exploit it, which favors the stronger player. So even if eight tempi (let's say) are adequate compensation for a knight, an eight move handicap requires more skill to exploit than an extra piece.
It would be very interesting to test your hypothesis that longer tc favors the attacker. If you double or quadruple your time limit we could find out. It's not obvious to me which side benefits more from longer tc, the attacker or the side with more material.

Nice, maybe that's why while time handicapped the positional advantage is harder to convert than material. I can confirm, though with difficulty on my notebook, in not very many games and only one position, that the hypothesis of longer time control favoring the attacker is valid. The games are on weak 2 cores of 1.2GHz each. When I will be back home, I may test more thoroughly.

With the previous position showing 0.00 after 10 minutes:
[d]rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/2BPPB2/2N3P1/PPP1QP1P/1K1R3R w kq - 0 1

Increasing time controls (still very fast):

Code: Select all

2.5''+0.025''
Games        :    100 (finished)

White Wins   :     34 (34.0 %)
Black Wins   :     52 (52.0 %)
Draws        :     14 (14.0 %)
Unfinished   :      0



5''+0.05''
Games        :    100 (finished)

White Wins   :     36 (36.0 %)
Black Wins   :     48 (48.0 %)
Draws        :     16 (16.0 %)
Unfinished   :      0



20''+0.2''
Games        :    100 (finished)

White Wins   :     42 (42.0 %)
Black Wins   :     37 (37.0 %)
Draws        :     21 (21.0 %)
Unfinished   :      0

At longer 20''+0.2'' the outcome already surpasses the eval of 0.00. My guess is that to longer TC it may be beneficial to even increase the importance of positional factors in Komodo. This might be a problem of all engines which have to pass first very short time control, it may harm there, but it probably scales well to longer TC.

That trend does look significant. Maybe we'll try out your idea at longer tc than we usually test at.

Yes, seems significant, confirmed by longer TC:

Code: Select all

60''+0.6''
Games        :    100 (finished)

White Wins   :     46 (46.0 %)
Black Wins   :     25 (25.0 %)
Draws        :     29 (29.0 %)
Unfinished   :      0

Still, it's only one position, and tested without an "opening book", on 2 cores and granular time for diversity, which may give way to some repeated skewed results.

[lkaufman]

I think that what's going on is that with a development advantage you need to play sharply to fully exploit it, which favors the stronger player. So even if eight tempi (let's say) are adequate compensation for a knight, an eight move handicap requires more skill to exploit than an extra piece.
It would be very interesting to test your hypothesis that longer tc favors the attacker. If you double or quadruple your time limit we could find out. It's not obvious to me which side benefits more from longer tc, the attacker or the side with more material.

Nice, maybe that's why while time handicapped the positional advantage is harder to convert than material. I can confirm, though with difficulty on my notebook, in not very many games and only one position, that the hypothesis of longer time control favoring the attacker is valid. The games are on weak 2 cores of 1.2GHz each. When I will be back home, I may test more thoroughly.

With the previous position showing 0.00 after 10 minutes:
[d]rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/2BPPB2/2N3P1/PPP1QP1P/1K1R3R w kq - 0 1

Increasing time controls (still very fast):

Code: Select all

2.5''+0.025''
Games        :    100 (finished)

White Wins   :     34 (34.0 %)
Black Wins   :     52 (52.0 %)
Draws        :     14 (14.0 %)
Unfinished   :      0



5''+0.05''
Games        :    100 (finished)

White Wins   :     36 (36.0 %)
Black Wins   :     48 (48.0 %)
Draws        :     16 (16.0 %)
Unfinished   :      0



20''+0.2''
Games        :    100 (finished)

White Wins   :     42 (42.0 %)
Black Wins   :     37 (37.0 %)
Draws        :     21 (21.0 %)
Unfinished   :      0

At longer 20''+0.2'' the outcome already surpasses the eval of 0.00. My guess is that to longer TC it may be beneficial to even increase the importance of positional factors in Komodo. This might be a problem of all engines which have to pass first very short time control, it may harm there, but it probably scales well to longer TC.

That trend does look significant. Maybe we'll try out your idea at longer tc than we usually test at.

Yes, seems significant, confirmed by longer TC:

Code: Select all

60''+0.6''
Games        :    100 (finished)

White Wins   :     46 (46.0 %)
Black Wins   :     25 (25.0 %)
Draws        :     29 (29.0 %)
Unfinished   :      0

Still, it's only one position, and tested without an "opening book", on 2 cores and granular time for diversity, which may give way to some repeated skewed results.

Thanks, this is very helpful and pretty impressive, nearly 140 elo swing from the shortest to longest tc tested. We're trying to verify the principle in general; early results are confirming but samples still small.

[JJJ]

What will be the next encounter ?

[lkaufman]

What will be the next encounter ?

Two pawn handicap with GM Martin Petr a week from tomorrow. I'll post a poll with details soon.

[JJJ]

What will be the next encounter ?

Two pawn handicap with GM Martin Petr a week from tomorrow. I'll post a poll with details soon.

Thanks you.
Btw, have you made some progress with Komodo ? Do you know if you gonna release another update soon ?

[lkaufman]

What will be the next encounter ?

Two pawn handicap with GM Martin Petr a week from tomorrow. I'll post a poll with details soon.

Thanks you.
Btw, have you made some progress with Komodo ? Do you know if you gonna release another update soon ?

Yes, we have made good progress already since 9.1. No decision yet on next release date. I hope that next Komodo will benefit from things we have learned from these handicap matches.

[JJJ]

Komodo could be better yet at the very first move of the opening ?

[lkaufman]

Komodo could be better yet at the very first move of the opening ?

Sorry, I don't understand the question.

[JJJ]

My bad, my english is not always good.
Will Komodo be better without book at the opening ?