Komodo vs. Movsesian

[JJJ]

The handicap is: four games at the traditional "pawn and move"

Could you describe what is that?

That's mean humain play white vs Komodo black with the f7 pawn removed.

[Laskos]

The handicap is: four games at the traditional "pawn and move"

Could you describe what is that?

That's mean humain play white vs Komodo black with the f7 pawn removed.

No, I think that means (besides f7) human also makes the move 1.e4 (or other first move) and human is still to move.

[duncan]

The handicap is: four games at the traditional "pawn and move"

Could you describe what is that?

That's mean humain play white vs Komodo black with the f7 pawn removed.

No, I think that means (besides f7) human also makes the move 1.e4 (or other first move) and human is still to move.

from wiki

Pawn and move: The weaker player plays White; a black pawn (typically that on f7) is removed from the board.
Pawn and two moves: The weaker player plays the first two moves, and Black's pawn on f7 is removed.

[Laskos]

The handicap is: four games at the traditional "pawn and move"

Could you describe what is that?

That's mean humain play white vs Komodo black with the f7 pawn removed.

No, I think that means (besides f7) human also makes the move 1.e4 (or other first move) and human is still to move.

from wiki

Pawn and move: The weaker player plays White; a black pawn (typically that on f7) is removed from the board.
Pawn and two moves: The weaker player plays the first two moves, and Black's pawn on f7 is removed.

Ah, ok.

[lkaufman]

The handicap is: four games at the traditional "pawn and move"

Could you describe what is that?

Very simple: computer plays Black with f7 pawn missing.

[lkaufman]

Hi Larry,

Excuse me if it seems that I rain on your parade but why do you keep on organizing these stupid handicapped matches that have nothing to do with the great game of chess !?

Please don't percept this as a a personal attack but you of all people in this forum should know that a normal game of chess is priceless even if Komodo crushes,and he will,the GM with a perfect score....

These handicapped matches are an abomination of the classic game of chess and doesn't prove or state anything....If they do FIDE would apply them among the human players....

Now time odd matches is another story....Give the GM double or triple the time for thinking but let him play normal chess....

Just my two cents regards,
Dr.D

I grew up reading the stories of Paul Morphy's playing matches giving pawn and move to many of the world's leading players, and even knight odds to some of America's top players. There are also countless games and matches by Staunton and Steinitz at these handicaps (and Exchange handicap in the case of Staunton). There are recorded handicap games by several of the World Champions after Steinitz, and Bobby Fischer is known to have played hundreds (if not thousands) of games giving pawn and move or moves to masters. Even Kasparov played a two pawn handicap match. To me handicap chess is very much a part of our classical chess heritage. I myself have played thousands (literally) of handicap games. I much prefer to stick to the classical handicaps when it is reasonable to do so. In my opinion, the only interesting match we could have with a top GM that did not modify the starting position wold be to give him White pieces, draw odds, and no opening book for the computer. I hope we can try that eventually.

[Jesse Gersenson]

(besides f7) human also makes the move 1.e4 (or other first move) and human is still to move.

That would be "pawn and two moves".

[duncan]

This coming Wednesday and Thursday (sept 9 and 10), Komodo will play a six game handicap match against Grandmaster Sergei Movsesian. Movsesian was rated FIDE 2751 in the year 2009, at which time he was World number 10. Currently his FIDE rating is 2658, World number 89, but in rapid chess (which is perhaps more relevant) he is currently World number 30 at 2723. He was born in 1978 so is still relatively young. Komodo will be playing on my 24 core server, and may use a small handicap opening book to provide variety.
The handicap is: four games at the traditional "pawn and move" handicap, the f7 pawn, which is considered the most difficult pawn for Black to give up. The other two games are at Exchange (rook for knight) handicap; Komodo plays White without a1 rook, Movsesian plays without b8 knight and places his queen's rook on b8 instead of a8 (so Black can't castle long, since White can't). Time limit is our usual 45' plus 15" increment. Games start at 9 a.m. Eastern time, 3 pm central European time. Broadcast is planned for chess.com, other sites to be announced.
Seven years ago Rybka tried to give these handicaps to Vadim Milov, then World number 30, but failed to win any games, scoring one draw in two games at f7 handicap and three draws in four games at Exchange handicap. More recently Stockfish scored 1.5 out of two against Nakamura giving him a pawn and the White pieces, but Stockfish conceded the b7 pawn in one game and the h7 pawn in the other, much smaller handicaps than the f7 pawn.
Is Komodo sufficiently stronger than Rybka to tie or win this match? No one knows of course, but it should be a competitive match. Although the two handicaps are considered to be about equally large (both something like 1 1/2 pawn handicaps), I am more worried about the f7 games because the f7 handicap is much more susceptible to preparation than the Exchange handicap. The opening after 1.e4 at f7 handicap is rather unpleasant for Black; he doesn't get mated quickly, but he has to concede a serious deficit in space and development while remaining a pawn down.

anything you would add to this ?


http://en.chessbase.com/post/the-milov- ... icap-match


The Milov vs. Rybka Handicap Match


By IM Larry Kaufman

Although Rybka has played no less than thirteen official matches at various handicaps with titled players (ten of the matches with GMs) in the past year and a half, the match from Septermber 14-18 with Vadim Milov was our first match with an Elite (FIDE 2700+) GM, Milov being rated number 28 in the world at 2705. As usual, the match was played at my home in Potomac, Maryland, USA and broadcast on the Internet.

..


Here are some conclusions I've drawn from the match:

1. We need to do more to avoid blocked positions. Rybka 3 is much better than earlier versions in handling this, especially with a high contempt setting. But when down in material (as in handicap games), Rybka often tries to close the position to make a draw more likely. We need to remedy this before playing more matches (especially handicap matches) with humans.

2. We need a special opening book to play for a win with black in normal chess. When White plays very conservatively, it's not easy to win as Black with normal defenses. The drawn game we had in the non-handicap game was an Exchange Slav.

3. I should have set contempt higher in the handicap games. I don't know if it would have made a difference, but it might have avoided some blocking moves.

4. Although pawn (f7) and move handicap is quite playable, there are just a few playable defenses to 1.e4, which means a lack of variety. If a GM is well-prepared in the opening, it would be quite difficult for Rybka to do well at this handicap in a serious match like this one. I think we were too generous to offer this handicap to an Elite GM at a standard time limit. More appropriate would be either the f2 or c7 pawn I think.

5. The Exchange handicap proved to be both interesting and competitive. Although Black is surely winning from the start, at least Rybka can use her first move and extra minor piece to play actively in the opening. However there is one big problem that I underestimated before the match. White cannot castle long without a rook on that wing, but Black can, and did in two of the four games. With his knight missing from b8, castling long is easy for Black to do. In rook-odds games long ago, some players allowed White to play Kc1 in one move, but this would be impossible for a normal Rybka to consider. The handicap is already decisive materially, and for Black to have a choice of where to castle while White does not makes it too much. So if the exchange handicap is used in future matches, I think that Black should not be allowed to castle long, as if the a8 rook had already moved.

[lkaufman]

(besides f7) human also makes the move 1.e4 (or other first move) and human is still to move.

That would be "pawn and two moves".

Yes, that was also a traditional handicap. Rybka beat IM Eugene Meyer by 3.5 to 0.5 at that handicap. It's roughly half of knight odds.

[lkaufman]

Now time odd matches is another story....Give the GM double or triple the time for thinking but let him play normal chess….

That might not be enough. I would go as far as giving the GM 90' + 30", while the engine only has 30" + 0.5". The total game time would be the same, and it'd be quite close (although the engine might still have an advantage, on strong hardware + book).

Assuming you are talking about Movsesian and not just some random grandmaster, that sounds about fair if you also give him the White pieces every game. Black is just too difficult. But I don't think it's very interesting. Everyone knows that computers think MUCH faster than humans, and it's not particularly interesting to find out whether it's 100x or 500x faster.