For fans of old chess computers

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

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F.Huber
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Location: Austria

Re: For fans of old chess computers

Post by F.Huber »

Ferdy wrote: Is there an info about the techniques used by this programs?
I doubt that you can find many infos about the program internals of these old chess computers.
They have been described in computerchess magazines 20-30 yeas ago, but I don't think they are available on the internet.

A good source for these machines is the Schach-Computer-Info Wiki, but it's only in German AFAIK, here's the link to the manufacturer overview (just click on Mephisto or Fidelity):
http://www.schach-computer.info/wiki/in ... steller_En

Franz
Ferdy
Posts: 4833
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2008 3:15 pm
Location: Philippines

Re: For fans of old chess computers

Post by Ferdy »

F.Huber wrote:
Ferdy wrote: Is there an info about the techniques used by this programs?
I doubt that you can find many infos about the program internals of these old chess computers.
They have been described in computerchess magazines 20-30 yeas ago, but I don't think they are available on the internet.

A good source for these machines is the Schach-Computer-Info Wiki, but it's only in German AFAIK, here's the link to the manufacturer overview (just click on Mephisto or Fidelity):
http://www.schach-computer.info/wiki/in ... steller_En

Franz
Thanks for those info.
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F.Huber
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Location: Austria

Re: For fans of old chess computers

Post by F.Huber »

And here's the next update:
http://www48.zippyshare.com/v/E106k6a3/file.html

Changes:
1) Load State didn't work for the ParEx modules - fixed now!
2) added a chessboard also to 2 other Novag modules (Chess Champion MK I and MK II), and improved their artworks
(now for the MK I also the L/S switch is clickable with the mouse)
3) changed the CPU frequency of MK I from 1 MHz to the original 1.78 MHz
4) and the MK I now displays the blinking level number while the engine is thinking (before my changes it only showed a blank display)

So these new Novag MK I & II are now working quite well (but of course they play rather weak, and you'll probably need the manuals to use them).

Regards,
Franz
royb
Posts: 536
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:53 am

Re: For fans of old chess computers

Post by royb »

F.Huber wrote:And here's the next update:
http://www48.zippyshare.com/v/E106k6a3/file.html

Changes:
1) Load State didn't work for the ParEx modules - fixed now!
2) added a chessboard also to 2 other Novag modules (Chess Champion MK I and MK II), and improved their artworks
(now for the MK I also the L/S switch is clickable with the mouse)
3) changed the CPU frequency of MK I from 1 MHz to the original 1.78 MHz
4) and the MK I now displays the blinking level number while the engine is thinking (before my changes it only showed a blank display)

So these new Novag MK I & II are now working quite well (but of course they play rather weak, and you'll probably need the manuals to use them).

Regards,
Franz
First off, many thanks for putting this together and making it available to all of us!

I have a question about the maximum speed:

If I change the speed from 100% to 50%, the result is the same as if I changed the speed from 100% to 1000%. Even at 50%, the machine runs MUCH faster. I'm guessing this is a bug?

I ran some tests with the Vancouver 32 bit system:

Opening book: off
Level: 07 ply

From the opening position, I timed how long for the system to make a move (Nf3 in this case is the move selected though that's not important):

100% 3 minutes 42 seconds
1000% 1 minute 5 seconds
50% 1 minute 5 seconds

Am I missing something?

Thanks again for a wonderful trip down memory lane!
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F.Huber
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Location: Austria

Re: For fans of old chess computers

Post by F.Huber »

royb wrote: From the opening position, I timed how long for the system to make a move (Nf3 in this case is the move selected though that's not important):

100% 3 minutes 42 seconds
1000% 1 minute 5 seconds
50% 1 minute 5 seconds

Am I missing something?
Yes, you're missing that your computer is probably not fast enough to emulate a 68020 CPU at 120 MHz (1000% = 10*12 MHz).

You can check this in the menu 'Options > Show FPS', this displays a number (in %) at the right top corner, and if this value is not about 100%, then your computer is just too slow for this emulation speed (this even results in a slowdown).

BTW, running with any changed emulation speed (no matter whether less or more) has another problem: the levels (i.e. time controls) are not correct anymore, because the module's internal clock is also not running with the correct speed, and also all sounds are quite strange.

Franz
royb
Posts: 536
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:53 am

Re: For fans of old chess computers

Post by royb »

F.Huber wrote:
royb wrote: From the opening position, I timed how long for the system to make a move (Nf3 in this case is the move selected though that's not important):

100% 3 minutes 42 seconds
1000% 1 minute 5 seconds
50% 1 minute 5 seconds

Am I missing something?
Yes, you're missing that your computer is probably not fast enough to emulate a 68020 CPU at 120 MHz (1000% = 10*12 MHz).

You can check this in the menu 'Options > Show FPS', this displays a number (in %) at the right top corner, and if this value is not about 100%, then your computer is just too slow for this emulation speed (this even results in a slowdown).

BTW, running with any changed emulation speed (no matter whether less or more) has another problem: the levels (i.e. time controls) are not correct anymore, because the module's internal clock is also not running with the correct speed, and also all sounds are quite strange.

Franz
I'm running a Haswell CPU (2015 vintage). I find it hard to believe it is not fast enough. My clock speed is 2.8 GHz on the CPU with bursts up to 3.8 GHz for a single core. So there must be another reason.

And the 50% speed is FASTER than the 100% speed? That doesn't make sense to me.
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F.Huber
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Re: For fans of old chess computers

Post by F.Huber »

royb wrote: I'm running a Haswell CPU (2015 vintage). I find it hard to believe it is not fast enough.
Well, what FPS did you get? Was it about 100%?
Emulating a different CPU (especially a quite powerful one like the M680x0) is a rather hard task - every single CPU microcode instruction must be translated to several commands of the host CPU, so there's of course a limit for the emulation speed.
And the 50% speed is FASTER than the 100% speed? That doesn't make sense to me.
You certainly know that almost all chess computers or programs use a random generator, else they would always produce exactly the same moves.
So if you look at your test conditions ...
Opening book: off
Level: 07 ply
From the opening position, I timed how long for the system to make a move (Nf3 in this case is the move selected though that's not important)
... can't you imagine that THIS might be the reason for the different results (which seem to look strange for you)?

But even IF there really problems with different emulations speeds, then the reason would be the underlying emulation system MESS, and you should contact the MESS developers - I'm not responsible for this MESS system, I just implemented and/or improved the chess modules.

Franz
royb
Posts: 536
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:53 am

Re: For fans of old chess computers

Post by royb »

F.Huber wrote:
royb wrote: I'm running a Haswell CPU (2015 vintage). I find it hard to believe it is not fast enough.
Well, what FPS did you get? Was it about 100%?
Emulating a different CPU (especially a quite powerful one like the M680x0) is a rather hard task - every single CPU microcode instruction must be translated to several commands of the host CPU, so there's of course a limit for the emulation speed.
And the 50% speed is FASTER than the 100% speed? That doesn't make sense to me.
You certainly know that almost all chess computers or programs use a random generator, else they would always produce exactly the same moves.
So if you look at your test conditions ...
Opening book: off
Level: 07 ply
From the opening position, I timed how long for the system to make a move (Nf3 in this case is the move selected though that's not important)
... can't you imagine that THIS might be the reason for the different results (which seem to look strange for you)?

But even IF there really problems with different emulations speeds, then the reason would be the underlying emulation system MESS, and you should contact the MESS developers - I'm not responsible for this MESS system, I just implemented and/or improved the chess modules.

Franz
The FPS rating I get fluctuates between 100% and 105%. I didn't realize you were not involved in the MESS system, sorry about that.

The work you've done is simply wonderful all the same! Such a large collection of old dedicated chess computers that can be brought up again and enjoyed. At least some of these are beatable by a weak player like me!

Thanks again!
Ferdy
Posts: 4833
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2008 3:15 pm
Location: Philippines

Re: For fans of old chess computers

Post by Ferdy »

F.Huber wrote:And here's the next update:
http://www48.zippyshare.com/v/E106k6a3/file.html

Changes:
1) Load State didn't work for the ParEx modules - fixed now!
2) added a chessboard also to 2 other Novag modules (Chess Champion MK I and MK II), and improved their artworks
(now for the MK I also the L/S switch is clickable with the mouse)
3) changed the CPU frequency of MK I from 1 MHz to the original 1.78 MHz
4) and the MK I now displays the blinking level number while the engine is thinking (before my changes it only showed a blank display)

So these new Novag MK I & II are now working quite well (but of course they play rather weak, and you'll probably need the manuals to use them).

Regards,
Franz
Thanks for the update.
A sample game with MK II.

[pgn]
[Event "Test game"]
[Site "Home"]
[Date "????.??.??"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Me"]
[Black "Novag Chess Champion MK II"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Annotator "Brainfish 130816 64 POPCNT (0.3s/pos, thread=1)"]
[ECO "D30"]
[EventDate "2016.08.17"]

1.d4 { Cerebellum recommends: e4 } 1...d5 { Cerebellum recommends: Nf6 } 2.c4 { Move from cerebellum } 2...e6 { Move from cerebellum } 3.e3 { Cerebellum recommends: Nf3 } 3...dxc4 { Cerebellum recommends: Nf6 } 4.Bxc4 { Cerebellum recommends: Nf3 } 4...Bb4+ { Cerebellum recommends: Nf6 } 5.Nc3 Nc6 6.Nf3 Qd6 $2 $16 { +1.38/15 } ( { Better is } 6...Nf6 7.O-O O-O 8.a3 Bxc3 9.bxc3 b6 $14 { +0.96/13 } ) ( { One that deserves attention is } 6...a6 7.a3 Be7 8.O-O Nf6 9.e4 h6 $16 { +1.05/13 } ) ( { White is threatening } 6...-- 7.O-O Nf6 8.a3 Bxc3 9.bxc3 O-O 10.Bd3 $16 { +1.09/13 } ) 7.O-O $1 Nf6 $16 { +1.07/13 } ( { Inferior is } 7...a6 $2 { on the grounds of } 8.a3 Bxc3 9.bxc3 Nge7 10.a4 $16 { +1.61/12 } ) 8.a3 b5 $4 $18 { +4.87/14 } ( { Excellent is } 8...Ba5 9.b4 Bb6 10.Na4 O-O 11.Bb2 Qd8 $16 { +1.47/13 } ) ( { White is threatening } 8...-- 9.axb4 Qxb4 10.Ra4 Qe7 11.b4 Nxb4 12.Qb3 $18 { +4.36/14 } ) 9.Nxb5 Qd7 $18 { +5.29/14 } ( { A nice try could be } 9...Qe7 10.axb4 O-O 11.Ne5 Nxe5 12.dxe5 Nd5 $18 { +4.66/13 } ) ( { White is threatening } 9...-- 10.Nxd6+ Bxd6 11.e4 Be7 12.Bb5 Bd7 13.Qc2 $18 { +9.48/12 } ) 10.axb4 Nxb4 $18 { +8.39/15 } ( { A nice try could be } 10...O-O 11.Bd2 Qe7 12.Ra4 a6 13.Na3 Bd7 $18 { +5.38/13 } ) ( { White is threatening } 10...-- 11.Ne5 Nxe5 12.dxe5 Nd5 13.e4 a6 14.exd5 $18 { +6.48/15 } ) 11.Bd2 $18 { +5.32/15 } ( { Excellent is } 11.Qa4 O-O 12.Qxb4 Nd5 13.Qb3 Bb7 14.Ne5 $18 { +8.75/14 } ) ( { A fine line worth of consideration is } 11.Ne5 Qe7 12.Nxa7 O-O 13.Nac6 Nxc6 14.Nxc6 $18 { +6.81/14 } ) 11...Ba6 $18 { +12.16/16 } ( { A nice try could be } 11...Nc6 12.Ne5 Nxe5 13.dxe5 Nd5 14.Qc2 Bb7 $18 { +5.61/13 } ) ( { White is threatening } 11...-- 12.Bxb4 Rb8 13.Ne5 Rxb5 14.Nxd7 Rxb4 15.Nxf6+ $18 { +13.60/17 } ) 12.Bxb4 $18 { +8.85/17 } ( { Excellent is } 12.Ne5 Bxb5 13.Nxd7 Bxc4 14.Nxf6+ gxf6 15.Bxb4 $18 { +12.34/15 } ) 12...Bxb5 13.Ne5 Qd8 $18 { White will mate black in 9 moves } ( { A nice try could be } 13...Bxc4 14.Nxd7 Kxd7 15.Qa4+ c6 16.Rfc1 Bb5 $18 { +8.38/14 } ) ( { White is threatening } 13...-- 14.Nxd7 Bxd7 15.Qf3 Rb8 16.Bc5 Rc8 17.Rxa7 $18 { +16.02/16 } ) 14.Bxb5+ c6 15.Bxc6+ Nd7 16.Bxd7+ Qxd7 17.Nxd7 Kxd7 18.Qa4+ Kc7 19.Rfc1+ Kb6 20.Qc6# { WBlunder: 0, WMistake: 0, WDubious: 0, BBlunder: 1, BMistake: 1, BDubious: 0 } 1-0
[/pgn]
Daniel Anulliero
Posts: 759
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2013 4:55 pm
Location: Nice

Re: For fans of old chess computers

Post by Daniel Anulliero »

F.Huber wrote:And here's the next update:
http://www48.zippyshare.com/v/E106k6a3/file.html

Changes:
1) Load State didn't work for the ParEx modules - fixed now!
2) added a chessboard also to 2 other Novag modules (Chess Champion MK I and MK II), and improved their artworks
(now for the MK I also the L/S switch is clickable with the mouse)
3) changed the CPU frequency of MK I from 1 MHz to the original 1.78 MHz
4) and the MK I now displays the blinking level number while the engine is thinking (before my changes it only showed a blank display)

So these new Novag MK I & II are now working quite well (but of course they play rather weak, and you'll probably need the manuals to use them).

Regards,
Franz
I'm waiting for the Scisys "Chess traveller " because it was the first chess engine I bought in 1980 :)
With a lot of nostalgia regards
:wink: