How do you detect a useless outpost ?

[Henk]

Perhaps a defending knight is badly positioned unless on f3, c3, f6, c6 on pawn shield where it also protects the king.

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

Perhaps a defending knight is badly positioned unless on f3, c3, f6, c6 on pawn shield where it also protects the king.

chess will be a tough nut to crack.

tuning few terms leads us nowhere, 200-300 ply reasonable search is impossible, and, in order to at least reasonably approximate evaluation, you need to do full attack evaluation in terms of different pieces for at least some 10-20000 reasonable eval terms.

as engines do not do that, they rely on deeper search to get them closer to the game outcome (deepr search = better eval), but 30 mg plies with a lot of pruning involved and miserable eval certainly leads us nowhere too.

so, rigth now, we are stuck.

maybe Skipper will find something promising.

[Guenther]

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[Henk]

Perhaps a defending knight is badly positioned unless on f3, c3, f6, c6 on pawn shield where it also protects the king.

chess will be a tough nut to crack.

tuning few terms leads us nowhere, 200-300 ply reasonable search is impossible, and, in order to at least reasonably approximate evaluation, you need to do full attack evaluation in terms of different pieces for at least some 10-20000 reasonable eval terms.

as engines do not do that, they rely on deeper search to get them closer to the game outcome (deepr search = better eval), but 30 mg plies with a lot of pruning involved and miserable eval certainly leads us nowhere too.

so, rigth now, we are stuck.

maybe Skipper will find something promising.

Skipper? Yes of course. [Aprils fool]

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

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if (detected) {detected=genius;} THANK YOU, Guenther!

seriously, this is your 10 attempt at discrediting me without having the slightest reason for doing this, definitely this is about the time for the mods to issue a stern warning to you, as you are BREAKING the Charter, consistently.

what did I do to you to treat me in that way? all I did is post a diagram, which is good, and suggest heuristics for detecting useless outposts, in what way is this wrong or reprehensible? if you have problems with my heuristics, please say why and suggest an improvement.

but, the way you repeatedly and very boringly attack me, is simply the bahaviour of a ras**(pointer,pointer)l. Is not it much better to try to learn something instead? My family has a long history of teaching/education, if you need some lessons, I would be happy to respond.

btw., are you the same guy who used to play tscp and engines of similar strength in RWBC? If that is the case, I am not surprised at all, as your level is about the level of tscp, what is disturbing is that you do not want to learn.

[Guenther]

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if (detected) {detected=genius;} THANK YOU, Guenther!

seriously, this is your 10 attempt at discrediting me without having the slightest reason for doing this, definitely this is about the time for the mods to issue a stern warning to you, as you are BREAKING the Charter, consistently.

what did I do to you to treat me in that way? all I did is post a diagram, which is good, and suggest heuristics for detecting useless outposts, in what way is this wrong or reprehensible? if you have problems with my heuristics, please say why and suggest an improvement.

but, the way you repeatedly and very boringly attack me, is simply the bahaviour of a ras**(pointer,pointer)l. Is not it much better to try to learn something instead? My family has a long history of teaching/education, if you need some lessons, I would be happy to respond.

btw., are you the same guy who used to play tscp and engines of similar strength in RWBC? If that is the case, I am not surprised at all, as your level is about the level of tscp, what is disturbing is that you do not want to learn.

FYI my level is 2000+ Elo. For all other points you have discredited yourself already enough for years... and you were warned already a few times by mods - not vice versa.

Most people here are just bored by your stubborn troll posts...

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

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content value : 0.01
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if (detected) {detected=genius;} THANK YOU, Guenther!

seriously, this is your 10 attempt at discrediting me without having the slightest reason for doing this, definitely this is about the time for the mods to issue a stern warning to you, as you are BREAKING the Charter, consistently.

what did I do to you to treat me in that way? all I did is post a diagram, which is good, and suggest heuristics for detecting useless outposts, in what way is this wrong or reprehensible? if you have problems with my heuristics, please say why and suggest an improvement.

but, the way you repeatedly and very boringly attack me, is simply the bahaviour of a ras**(pointer,pointer)l. Is not it much better to try to learn something instead? My family has a long history of teaching/education, if you need some lessons, I would be happy to respond.

btw., are you the same guy who used to play tscp and engines of similar strength in RWBC? If that is the case, I am not surprised at all, as your level is about the level of tscp, what is disturbing is that you do not want to learn.

FYI my level is 2000+ Elo. For all other points you have discredited yourself already enough for years... and you were warned already a few times by mods - not vice versa.

Most people here are just bored by your stubborn troll posts...

then do not use SF, as in SF there are a lot of my eval ideas; also probably some of the other top and stronger engines, for the same reason.

just stick to tscp & co.

still, this does not give you the rigth to constantly attack me, for whatever reasons.

[Henk]

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content value : 0.01
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if (detected) {detected=genius;} THANK YOU, Guenther!

seriously, this is your 10 attempt at discrediting me without having the slightest reason for doing this, definitely this is about the time for the mods to issue a stern warning to you, as you are BREAKING the Charter, consistently.

what did I do to you to treat me in that way? all I did is post a diagram, which is good, and suggest heuristics for detecting useless outposts, in what way is this wrong or reprehensible? if you have problems with my heuristics, please say why and suggest an improvement.

but, the way you repeatedly and very boringly attack me, is simply the bahaviour of a ras**(pointer,pointer)l. Is not it much better to try to learn something instead? My family has a long history of teaching/education, if you need some lessons, I would be happy to respond.

btw., are you the same guy who used to play tscp and engines of similar strength in RWBC? If that is the case, I am not surprised at all, as your level is about the level of tscp, what is disturbing is that you do not want to learn.

FYI my level is 2000+ Elo. For all other points you have discredited yourself already enough for years... and you were warned already a few times by mods - not vice versa.

Most people here are just bored by your stubborn troll posts...

then do not use SF, as in SF there are a lot of my eval ideas; also probably some of the other top and stronger engines, for the same reason.

just stick to tscp & co.

still, this does not give you the rigth to constantly attack me, for whatever reasons.

He did attack me too. Perhaps he only wants to read content like that of scientific magazines with good reputation. If so that will cost him money. Also maybe only very few people are qualified. So that will give a dead website. Only a few posts per year.

[cdani]

[d]r2q1rk1/3nppbp/1p1p2p1/pPpP4/PnP1PP2/R4N1P/6P1/1BBQ1RK1 b - - 0 1

here is your useless outpost, white wins even if black makes 4 non-capturing moves in a row.

I suppose that some penalization for this knight will be good, but maybe this does not happen much to be able to achieve a measurable elo win. Anyway, I will try something related, and as other times I have done, even if is not a win (should not be a regression) I keep the parameter in Andscacs, as I consider it conceptually good and sure it helps in some positions.

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

[d]r2q1rk1/3nppbp/1p1p2p1/pPpP4/PnP1PP2/R4N1P/6P1/1BBQ1RK1 b - - 0 1

here is your useless outpost, white wins even if black makes 4 non-capturing moves in a row.

I suppose that some penalization for this knight will be good, but maybe this does not happen much to be able to achieve a measurable elo win. Anyway, I will try something related, and as other times I have done, even if is not a win (should not be a regression) I keep the parameter in Andscacs, as I consider it conceptually good and sure it helps in some positions.

thanks for not insulting me, Daniel!

probably it will fail, it is not a major term and, true, should not happen too often.

the speed decrease will hardly be offset by the value of the term in very short games.

besides, I do not have a clue how you are going to tune this to the other terms: you have to tune to kingside outposts, queenside outposts, general case, whether 3rd and 4th ranks are included, etc., etc. I absolutely have no clue how is it possible for any reasonable search or eval patch to succeed, tuning seems the crux of computer chess.