Kings Indian expert

[Henk]

In this position Stockfish 8 wants me to play e7-e6. And after Nc3 d6-d5. Try it at home.

[d] rnbqkb1r/ppp1pppp/3p1n2/8/2PP4/5N2/PP2PPPP/RNBQKB1R b KQkq c3 0 3

[Henk]

Ridiculous isn't it?

[Ras]

Well that's why you have an opening book in real games - because that is easier, quicker and saves more game time than optimising the engine for that game phase.

The CT800 would play either g7-g6 or Nb8-d7 in that position as per the book.

Or without opening book and at tournament-like time controls, it would play g7-g6 after 84s all by itself at 8 plies depth, and that wouldn't even change at depth 9 plies after 4:45 minutes.

[Henk]

If it plays ridiculous moves in opening phase then it probably also plays ridiculous moves in middle game.

[yanquis1972]

i don't know if that follows, at least not so simply... 2 moves & 10-15 moves is a massive difference. but i dont disagree that its a troubling indication of SFs knowledge somewhere, & i hope things like this are looked at. but generally engine evaluations after 2 moves, OR in KID structures, are suspect.

[Ras]

If it plays ridiculous moves in opening phase then it probably also plays ridiculous moves in middle game.

No, because you can be pretty sure that they put a lot of effort into the middlegame programming. They probably didn't do that, however, for the opening, because they rather tuned the opening book.

[David Xu]

And your point is...?

[Dann Corbit]

Why do you think that e6 is not the best move?

Black is clearly at a disadvantage here in any case, both from a statistical standpoint (based on game outcomes) and from an analytical standpoint (based on computer evaluation).

[d]rnbqkb1r/ppp2ppp/4pn2/3p4/2PP4/2N2N2/PP2PPPP/R1BQKB1R w KQkq - acd 32; acs 360; bm Bf4; cce 74; ce 40; pm Bf4; pv Bf4 dxc4 e3 Nd5 Bxc4 Nxf4 exf4 Bd6; white_wins 5; black_wins 3; draws 4;
[d]rnbqkb1r/ppp2ppp/3ppn2/8/2PP4/2N2N2/PP2PPPP/R1BQKB1R b KQkq - acd 35; acs 360; bm d5; cce -88; ce -36; pm d5; pv d5 Bf4 Bd6 Bxd6 Qxd6 c5 Qe7 e3 O-O; white_wins 87; black_wins 51; draws 43;
[d]rnbqkb1r/ppp2ppp/3ppn2/8/2PP4/5N2/PP2PPPP/RNBQKB1R w KQkq - acd 36; acs 360; bm Nc3; cce 84; ce 39; pm Nc3; pv Nc3 d5 Bf4 dxc4 e3 Nd5 Bxc4 Nxf4 exf4 Bd6 g3 c6 O-O O-O a3 Nd7 Re1 a5 Qc2 Nf6 Rad1 Bc7 Ne5 Qe7 Be2 Rd8 Bf3 Bb6 Ne2 h6 Nc4 Bc7 Nc3 Bd7 Qd3; white_wins 79; black_wins 47; draws 43;
[d]rnbqkb1r/ppp1pppp/3p1n2/8/2PP4/5N2/PP2PPPP/RNBQKB1R b KQkq - acd 38; acs 3600; bm e6; c3 "Nbd7 c6 g6"; cce -74; ce -36; pm e6; pv e6 Nc3 d5 Bg5; white_wins 5315; black_wins 3210; draws 4123; Opening ECO:A53; Old Indian: 3.Nf3; 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 d6 3.Nf3 *;

[yanquis1972]

thats really a very interesting argument. what we see as foolish might be 'mending'; damage control....the results with black are incredibly poor here at high levels.

[Uri Blass]

In this position Stockfish 8 wants me to play e7-e6. And after Nc3 d6-d5. Try it at home.

[d] rnbqkb1r/ppp1pppp/3p1n2/8/2PP4/5N2/PP2PPPP/RNBQKB1R b KQkq c3 0 3

Maybe e6 Nc3 d5 is the best line.
Stockfish without opening book does not go to this position so Maybe black already did a mistake in this game by d6.