Can Komodo give knight odds in chess960 to a master?

[lkaufman]

Two years ago FM John Meyer defeated Komodo by 3 to 1 (two wins, two draws) in a knight-odds match at 45' + 15". Two other players of roughly similar strength also scored 75% in eight games under those conditions. We have scheduled a rematch with the difference that this time the games will be chess960 (a.k.a. Fischerandom) with Komodo playing White but removing whichever knight is further from the center (or further from the king if otherwise tied). The human unfamiliarity with the start positions will surely favor Komodo, but whether it will do so by more than the 200 elo needed based on the previous match is not obvious. This will be the first public chess 960 handicap match on record as far as I know.
John Meyer has a FIDE rating of 2270, but it is not realistic as it is over a decade old. However his 2217 USCF rating is accurate, since he does play ragularly in USCF rated league matches. John is 72 years old, but still fairly healthy and in practice, and has remained consistently above his 2200 "floor", so he is definitely a legitimate master by US standards. Probably an accurate FIDE rating for him would be about a hundred lower, so 2117. He once tied for first in the US Open, and was probably strong enough to become an IM forty years ago if he had played internationally.
The match is scheduled for Thursday, June 22 at 11:30 a.m Easter Daylight Time with games every 2.5 to 3 hours. Four games total. Meyer will receive $30 per win and $10 per draw. Komodo will run on my 24 core xeon machine using the latest development versions. Broadcast from KomodoChess, I'll post the link before the match. If Komodo wins the match, I plan to try again against a stronger opponent.

[JJJ]

I m hoping and betting for 1 win and 3 draw for Komodo.

[Graham Banks]

Komodo to score 1.5 points is my pick.

[lkaufman]

I m hoping and betting for 1 win and 3 draw for Komodo.[/quote

That is the mean/median/mode score as of this writing. I think it's a reasonable prediction. It can be difficult to figure out where to put your pieces without the benefit of experience and familiarity with the start position. This won't bother Komodo. Still, a knight is worth about four pawns in the opening, a huge advantage.

[JJJ]

I m hoping and betting for 1 win and 3 draw for Komodo.

That is the mean/median/mode score as of this writing. I think it's a reasonable prediction. It can be difficult to figure out where to put your pieces without the benefit of experience and familiarity with the start position. This won't bother Komodo. Still, a knight is worth about four pawns in the opening, a huge advantage.

Does it realy worth four pawns in any opening position ?

[JJJ]

And why not making a new kind of advantage.
Stockfish can play this position for exemple :

[d]rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/3PP3/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1

~+2,8

[Laskos]

Two years ago FM John Meyer defeated Komodo by 3 to 1 (two wins, two draws) in a knight-odds match at 45' + 15". Two other players of roughly similar strength also scored 75% in eight games under those conditions. We have scheduled a rematch with the difference that this time the games will be chess960 (a.k.a. Fischerandom) with Komodo playing White but removing whichever knight is further from the center (or further from the king if otherwise tied). The human unfamiliarity with the start positions will surely favor Komodo, but whether it will do so by more than the 200 elo needed based on the previous match is not obvious. This will be the first public chess 960 handicap match on record as far as I know.
John Meyer has a FIDE rating of 2270, but it is not realistic as it is over a decade old. However his 2217 USCF rating is accurate, since he does play ragularly in USCF rated league matches. John is 72 years old, but still fairly healthy and in practice, and has remained consistently above his 2200 "floor", so he is definitely a legitimate master by US standards. Probably an accurate FIDE rating for him would be about a hundred lower, so 2117. He once tied for first in the US Open, and was probably strong enough to become an IM forty years ago if he had played internationally.
The match is scheduled for Thursday, June 22 at 11:30 a.m Easter Daylight Time with games every 2.5 to 3 hours. Four games total. Meyer will receive $30 per win and $10 per draw. Komodo will run on my 24 core xeon machine using the latest development versions. Broadcast from KomodoChess, I'll post the link before the match. If Komodo wins the match, I plan to try again against a stronger opponent.

3.0/4 for Komodo in my book.
I found a suitable adversary to test a bit against, Fruit 2.2.1, 900 ELO points weaker. I built ~100 positions Chess960 handicap book, and played with different Contempts. For some reason, a not very big contempt was favored. I was expecting Contempt=100 favored, it turned out 50 is better. Here are the result with Komodo being handicapped by a Knight against Fruit 2.2.1 (1000 games each run):

Komodo Contempt=0:
80.9%
Komodo Contempt=50:
82.0%
Komodo Contempt=100:
79.7%

Also, Stockfish dev seems significantly stronger with this handicap against Fruit 2.2.1:
SF dev Contempt=0:
85.2%
SF dev Contempt=50:
86.2%
SF dev Contempt=100:
85.1%

[lkaufman]

I m hoping and betting for 1 win and 3 draw for Komodo.

That is the mean/median/mode score as of this writing. I think it's a reasonable prediction. It can be difficult to figure out where to put your pieces without the benefit of experience and familiarity with the start position. This won't bother Komodo. Still, a knight is worth about four pawns in the opening, a huge advantage.

Does it realy worth four pawns in any opening position ?

Of course the exact value of a knight varies with the position, but on average with all or almost all of the pieces on the board, 4 pawns is a reliable and slightly conservative figure. I believe for Stockfish the ratio of basic full-board values is quite close to 4, for Komodo it is effectively a bit higher.

[lkaufman]

And why not making a new kind of advantage.
Stockfish can play this position for exemple :

[d]rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/3PP3/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1

~+2,8

For one thing, some GUIs might not allow it. Also, I usually require that a handicap position be a legal one, so no one can object on those grounds. For example knight odds is a legal chess position, you can give away the knight to an enemy knight and bring the remaining knights back home. The goal is to make the handicap game as similar as possible to the normal one (whether chess or chess960).

[lkaufman]

Two years ago FM John Meyer defeated Komodo by 3 to 1 (two wins, two draws) in a knight-odds match at 45' + 15". Two other players of roughly similar strength also scored 75% in eight games under those conditions. We have scheduled a rematch with the difference that this time the games will be chess960 (a.k.a. Fischerandom) with Komodo playing White but removing whichever knight is further from the center (or further from the king if otherwise tied). The human unfamiliarity with the start positions will surely favor Komodo, but whether it will do so by more than the 200 elo needed based on the previous match is not obvious. This will be the first public chess 960 handicap match on record as far as I know.
John Meyer has a FIDE rating of 2270, but it is not realistic as it is over a decade old. However his 2217 USCF rating is accurate, since he does play ragularly in USCF rated league matches. John is 72 years old, but still fairly healthy and in practice, and has remained consistently above his 2200 "floor", so he is definitely a legitimate master by US standards. Probably an accurate FIDE rating for him would be about a hundred lower, so 2117. He once tied for first in the US Open, and was probably strong enough to become an IM forty years ago if he had played internationally.
The match is scheduled for Thursday, June 22 at 11:30 a.m Easter Daylight Time with games every 2.5 to 3 hours. Four games total. Meyer will receive $30 per win and $10 per draw. Komodo will run on my 24 core xeon machine using the latest development versions. Broadcast from KomodoChess, I'll post the link before the match. If Komodo wins the match, I plan to try again against a stronger opponent.

3.0/4 for Komodo in my book.
I found a suitable adversary to test a bit against, Fruit 2.2.1, 900 ELO points weaker. I built ~100 positions Chess960 handicap book, and played with different Contempts. For some reason, a not very big contempt was favored. I was expecting Contempt=100 favored, it turned out 50 is better. Here are the result with Komodo being handicapped by a Knight against Fruit 2.2.1 (1000 games each run):

Komodo Contempt=0:
80.9%
Komodo Contempt=50:
82.0%
Komodo Contempt=100:
79.7%

Also, Stockfish dev seems significantly stronger with this handicap against Fruit 2.2.1:
SF dev Contempt=0:
85.2%
SF dev Contempt=50:
86.2%
SF dev Contempt=100:
85.1%

This suggests that the elo gap/15 might be a better guideline than the handicap value/3 for setting Contempt. Or perhaps higher Contempt is more appropriate against humans than against engines of the same strength.
What was the time control (very fast I suppose)? Do you have comparison data for knight odds at normal chess (with either 50 or 100 Contempt) under the same conditions? I think that Komodo will score significantly higher in chess960 knight odds even against an engine than it can in normal knight odds, even though familiarity and opening knowledge don't play a role. Many chess960 positions require some difficult decisions as to how best to develop and coordinate the pieces, I think.