Goldin vs Korzubov, Dushanbe 1980

Discussion of computer chess matches and engine tournaments.

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Lyudmil Tsvetkov
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Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:41 pm

Re: Goldin vs Korzubov, Dushanbe 1980

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov »

Dann Corbit wrote:I saw a man who jumped out of a window when his building was on fire and he broke his leg.
Therefore, never jump out of the burning building.

Having 6 man tablebase files will solve more problems more quickly than not having them.

As for an engine making mistakes, yes. Stockfish does make mistakes. But it makes less mistakes than any other engine which is why it wins more games than any other engine.

It also makes less mistakes than any human on the planet, including Carlsen.

If a really strong engine failed to solve a problem, it probably means we did not give it enough time. Even bad pruning decisions will eventually be overcome by sufficient depth, because there is no algorithm that prunes down to zero (unless it is a pure loss or unless the program has a serious bug).
well, I do not know if the position is a black win with perfect play, or simply draw, no one, engine or human, knows that, and no one will know that, engine or human, for another 100 years to come.

in order to be certain what a difficult position is, one must find all the best moves for some 100 plies, and that makes an awful lot; currently, top engines will find only about every 3rd best move.

non skipping even a single best move in a 100-ply search is completely impossible, in any position that is a bit more difficult.

all I know is that 90% of all lines are won for black or black has large advantage, 300+ cps, so my guess is black has the much better chances.

however, it is still possible, with perfect play there is a draw, I do not know and have no way of knowing it, neither SF and Komodo do, no matter the TC and tbs used.

so, for the time being, I will believe the position is won for black, and you might want to believe whatever you like. :)
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Nordlandia
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Location: Sortland, Norway

Re: Goldin vs Korzubov, Dushanbe 1980

Post by Nordlandia »

Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:well, I do not know if the position is a black win with perfect play, or simply draw, no one, engine or human, knows that, and no one will know that, engine or human, for another 100 years to come.

in order to be certain what a difficult position is, one must find all the best moves for some 100 plies, and that makes an awful lot; currently, top engines will find only about every 3rd best move.

non skipping even a single best move in a 100-ply search is completely impossible, in any position that is a bit more difficult.

all I know is that 90% of all lines are won for black or black has large advantage, 300+ cps, so my guess is black has the much better chances.

however, it is still possible, with perfect play there is a draw, I do not know and have no way of knowing it, neither SF and Komodo do, no matter the TC and tbs used.

so, for the time being, I will believe the position is won for black, and you might want to believe whatever you like. :)
Lyudmil Tsvetkov: how about asking Carlsen or top GMs about the most likely outcome of this endgame?
Lyudmil Tsvetkov
Posts: 6052
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:41 pm

Re: Goldin vs Korzubov, Dushanbe 1980

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov »

Nordlandia wrote:
Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:well, I do not know if the position is a black win with perfect play, or simply draw, no one, engine or human, knows that, and no one will know that, engine or human, for another 100 years to come.

in order to be certain what a difficult position is, one must find all the best moves for some 100 plies, and that makes an awful lot; currently, top engines will find only about every 3rd best move.

non skipping even a single best move in a 100-ply search is completely impossible, in any position that is a bit more difficult.

all I know is that 90% of all lines are won for black or black has large advantage, 300+ cps, so my guess is black has the much better chances.

however, it is still possible, with perfect play there is a draw, I do not know and have no way of knowing it, neither SF and Komodo do, no matter the TC and tbs used.

so, for the time being, I will believe the position is won for black, and you might want to believe whatever you like. :)
Lyudmil Tsvetkov: how about asking Carlsen or top GMs about the most likely outcome of this endgame?
too weak, man, too weak.

I have my utmost respect for Carlsen, but he can never do 100 best moves in a row.

anyway, you live closer to Carlsen, might want to drop by some time...:)
tpoppins
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Location: upstate

Re: Goldin vs Korzubov, Dushanbe 1980

Post by tpoppins »

Don't know what help Carlsen or any of the current top GMs would be here. None of them has made a name for himself as an analyst.

As this is a complex, unusual endgame I think Karsten Müller would be a lot better man for the job than Caruana, Aronian and co. (who wouldn't bother with this position for its own sake - i.e. beauty, logic, search for truth - anyway). Mark Dvoretsky would have been an excellent choice as well had he been still with us. Kasparov was and could still be the last great super-GM analyst; good luck to anyone trying to have him contribute to this thread, though.

Meanwhile here is another VLTC shuffle. This time I wanted to see how the two top engines that offer extra features specifically for analysis would do. Althuough the depths are not as high as those of ASMfish that should be compensated by much wider search trees and an almost 5X longer TC.

Komodo 11.01 x64
Table Memory=512 MB
Null-move Pruning=off
Contempt=0

Houdini 5.01 Pro x64
Tactical Mode=on
Never Clear Hash=on
Contempt=0

Common settings:
Fritz 15.24 GUI
16 cores/threads
HT off
4 GB hash
6-men Syzygy
TB Probe Depth=1
everything else at default

TC=20 moves in 8h+30s / next 20 moves in 8h+30s / rest in 8h+30s

[pgn][Event "Nordlandia 3, (480m+30s)/20+(480m+30s)/"]
[Site "DellT5600-PC"]
[Date "2017.07.11"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Houdini 5.01 Pro x64-popc"]
[Black "Komodo 11.01 64-bit"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[Annotator "-1.43;-1.35"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "6k1/pp3p2/6p1/3p4/2pN4/P1P2P1P/1P1qR1P1/6K1 b - - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "44"]
[TimeControl "20/28800+30:20/28800+30:28800+30"]

{Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU E5-2670 0 @ 2.60GHz 2593 MHz W=45.7 plies; 37,046kN/s;
22,988,080 TBAs B=34.9 plies; 23,564kN/s; 65,550,576 TBAs} 1... Qd1+ {-1.35/33
843 Both last book move} 2. Kf2 {-1.43/42 2282} Kg7 {-1.40/35 1058 (a6)} 3. Nc2
{-1.37/42 1551 (Re1)} Qb1 {-1.45/36 1498} 4. Nd4 {-1.37/40 140} a6 {-1.48/36
3327 (Qa1)} 5. Rc2 {-1.31/42 764 (Kg3)} Kf6 {-1.48/35 895} 6. Rd2 {-1.31/43
1348} b6 {-1.48/34 476} 7. Rc2 {-1.31/44 895} b5 {-1.49/35 1113 (Qd1)} 8. Re2 {
-1.31/45 1423 (Rd2)} Qa1 {-1.49/33 772 (Kg7)} 9. Rd2 {-1.31/45 1422} Qc1 {
-1.49/35 960} 10. Re2 {-1.31/43 1144} Kg7 {-1.49/35 1126} 11. Rc2 {-1.31/43
3415} Qd1 {-1.49/35 1339 (Qa1)} 12. Re2 {-1.52/43 1731} Kh7 {-1.49/34 1774
(Qb1)} 13. Re1 {-1.37/42 649} Qd3 {-1.43/35 1221 (Qd2+)} 14. Re2 {-1.37/44 1651
} Qd1 {-1.43/34 1204 (Qb1)} 15. Re1 {-0.01/61 664 (Re8)} Qd3 {-1.43/33 440
(Qd2+)} 16. Re2 {-0.01/56 1266} Qb1 {-1.42/36 2425} 17. Rd2 {-1.37/43 2317} Qa1
{-1.43/35 1030 (Kg8)} 18. Rc2 {-1.43/42 1712 (Re2)} Qh1 {-1.44/36 2906 (Kg8)}
19. Re2 {-1.31/43 864} Qb1 {-1.44/36 1668 (Qc1)} 20. Rd2 {-0.01/72 1274} Kg7 {
-1.45/35 1627 (Kg8)} 21. Re2 {-1.38/44 2886} Kf6 {-1.45/36 1825 (Qa1)} 22. Rd2
{-1.30/44 3409 (Nc6)} Qa1 {-1.29/36 1435} 23. Re2 {-1.46/42 193 adjud. Draw
accepted} 1/2-1/2

[/pgn]

After a little over 16 hours I stopped the game. The last constructive move was 7...b5 after which there followed 15 moves of aimless shuffling.
Lyudmil Tsvetkov
Posts: 6052
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:41 pm

Re: Goldin vs Korzubov, Dushanbe 1980

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov »

tpoppins wrote:Don't know what help Carlsen or any of the current top GMs would be here. None of them has made a name for himself as an analyst.

As this is a complex, unusual endgame I think Karsten Müller would be a lot better man for the job than Caruana, Aronian and co. (who wouldn't bother with this position for its own sake - i.e. beauty, logic, search for truth - anyway). Mark Dvoretsky would have been an excellent choice as well had he been still with us. Kasparov was and could still be the last great super-GM analyst; good luck to anyone trying to have him contribute to this thread, though.

Meanwhile here is another VLTC shuffle. This time I wanted to see how the two top engines that offer extra features specifically for analysis would do. Althuough the depths are not as high as those of ASMfish that should be compensated by much wider search trees and an almost 5X longer TC.

Komodo 11.01 x64
Table Memory=512 MB
Null-move Pruning=off
Contempt=0

Houdini 5.01 Pro x64
Tactical Mode=on
Never Clear Hash=on
Contempt=0

Common settings:
Fritz 15.24 GUI
16 cores/threads
HT off
4 GB hash
6-men Syzygy
TB Probe Depth=1
everything else at default

TC=20 moves in 8h+30s / next 20 moves in 8h+30s / rest in 8h+30s

[pgn][Event "Nordlandia 3, (480m+30s)/20+(480m+30s)/"]
[Site "DellT5600-PC"]
[Date "2017.07.11"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Houdini 5.01 Pro x64-popc"]
[Black "Komodo 11.01 64-bit"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[Annotator "-1.43;-1.35"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "6k1/pp3p2/6p1/3p4/2pN4/P1P2P1P/1P1qR1P1/6K1 b - - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "44"]
[TimeControl "20/28800+30:20/28800+30:28800+30"]

{Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU E5-2670 0 @ 2.60GHz 2593 MHz W=45.7 plies; 37,046kN/s;
22,988,080 TBAs B=34.9 plies; 23,564kN/s; 65,550,576 TBAs} 1... Qd1+ {-1.35/33
843 Both last book move} 2. Kf2 {-1.43/42 2282} Kg7 {-1.40/35 1058 (a6)} 3. Nc2
{-1.37/42 1551 (Re1)} Qb1 {-1.45/36 1498} 4. Nd4 {-1.37/40 140} a6 {-1.48/36
3327 (Qa1)} 5. Rc2 {-1.31/42 764 (Kg3)} Kf6 {-1.48/35 895} 6. Rd2 {-1.31/43
1348} b6 {-1.48/34 476} 7. Rc2 {-1.31/44 895} b5 {-1.49/35 1113 (Qd1)} 8. Re2 {
-1.31/45 1423 (Rd2)} Qa1 {-1.49/33 772 (Kg7)} 9. Rd2 {-1.31/45 1422} Qc1 {
-1.49/35 960} 10. Re2 {-1.31/43 1144} Kg7 {-1.49/35 1126} 11. Rc2 {-1.31/43
3415} Qd1 {-1.49/35 1339 (Qa1)} 12. Re2 {-1.52/43 1731} Kh7 {-1.49/34 1774
(Qb1)} 13. Re1 {-1.37/42 649} Qd3 {-1.43/35 1221 (Qd2+)} 14. Re2 {-1.37/44 1651
} Qd1 {-1.43/34 1204 (Qb1)} 15. Re1 {-0.01/61 664 (Re8)} Qd3 {-1.43/33 440
(Qd2+)} 16. Re2 {-0.01/56 1266} Qb1 {-1.42/36 2425} 17. Rd2 {-1.37/43 2317} Qa1
{-1.43/35 1030 (Kg8)} 18. Rc2 {-1.43/42 1712 (Re2)} Qh1 {-1.44/36 2906 (Kg8)}
19. Re2 {-1.31/43 864} Qb1 {-1.44/36 1668 (Qc1)} 20. Rd2 {-0.01/72 1274} Kg7 {
-1.45/35 1627 (Kg8)} 21. Re2 {-1.38/44 2886} Kf6 {-1.45/36 1825 (Qa1)} 22. Rd2
{-1.30/44 3409 (Nc6)} Qa1 {-1.29/36 1435} 23. Re2 {-1.46/42 193 adjud. Draw
accepted} 1/2-1/2

[/pgn]

After a little over 16 hours I stopped the game. The last constructive move was 7...b5 after which there followed 15 moves of aimless shuffling.
sorry, do not have time to comment, but how much electricity you wasted on that?

I hope you did not follow the game live...:)

again Qd1 instead of Qc1 or Qf4, very strange.

black has a simple winning plan after Qf4-b8, a7-a5, b7-b5-b4.

why not at least push the pawn to b4?

I suggest to play the game till the end according to chess rules, otherwise I assume white resigned here. :)
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Nordlandia
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Location: Sortland, Norway

Re: Goldin vs Korzubov, Dushanbe 1980

Post by Nordlandia »

This endgame is similar in nature.

Any winning chances here?

[d]2Q5/1p3p2/p1b2k1p/3r2p1/3P4/P7/1P3PP1/5K2 b - - 0 34

[d]8/1p3pk1/p1b3pp/3r4/3P1Q2/P7/1P3PP1/5K2 w - - 0 35

[pgn][Event "8th Danzhou Super GM 2017"]
[Site "https://lichess.org/0lgsfSLW"]
[Date "2017.07.13"]
[Round "5"]
[White "Wei, Yi (2738)"]
[Black "Yu, Yangyi (2753)"]
[Result "*"]
[ECO "C42"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "r3rk2/pppbnppB/7p/2Q4q/3P4/P3R3/1P3PP1/5K2 w - - 0 24"]
[PlyCount "38"]
[EventDate "2017.??.??"]

24. Qxh5 Rad8 25. Qc5 Bc6 26. Bc2 a6 27. Bb3 Rd6 28. Qh5 Nd5 29. Rxe8+ Kxe8 30.
Qg4 g6 (30... g5 31. Bxd5 Rxd5 (31... Bxd5) 32. Qc8+ Ke7 33. Qxc7+ Kf6 34. Qc8)
31. Bxd5 Rxd5 32. Qc8+ Ke7 33. Qxc7+ Kf6 34. Qf4+ Kg7 35. f3 a5 36. b3 h5 37.
Kf2 Rb5 38. Qe3 Rd5 39. Ke1 Rf5 40. Qe7 Rd5 41. Qc7 Rf5 42. Qh2 Bd7 *

[/pgn]
Lyudmil Tsvetkov
Posts: 6052
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:41 pm

Re: Goldin vs Korzubov, Dushanbe 1980

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov »

Nordlandia wrote:This endgame is similar in nature.

Any winning chances here?

[d]2Q5/1p3p2/p1b2k1p/3r2p1/3P4/P7/1P3PP1/5K2 b - - 0 34

[d]8/1p3pk1/p1b3pp/3r4/3P1Q2/P7/1P3PP1/5K2 w - - 0 35

[pgn][Event "8th Danzhou Super GM 2017"]
[Site "https://lichess.org/0lgsfSLW"]
[Date "2017.07.13"]
[Round "5"]
[White "Wei, Yi (2738)"]
[Black "Yu, Yangyi (2753)"]
[Result "*"]
[ECO "C42"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "r3rk2/pppbnppB/7p/2Q4q/3P4/P3R3/1P3PP1/5K2 w - - 0 24"]
[PlyCount "38"]
[EventDate "2017.??.??"]

24. Qxh5 Rad8 25. Qc5 Bc6 26. Bc2 a6 27. Bb3 Rd6 28. Qh5 Nd5 29. Rxe8+ Kxe8 30.
Qg4 g6 (30... g5 31. Bxd5 Rxd5 (31... Bxd5) 32. Qc8+ Ke7 33. Qxc7+ Kf6 34. Qc8)
31. Bxd5 Rxd5 32. Qc8+ Ke7 33. Qxc7+ Kf6 34. Qf4+ Kg7 35. f3 a5 36. b3 h5 37.
Kf2 Rb5 38. Qe3 Rd5 39. Ke1 Rf5 40. Qe7 Rd5 41. Qc7 Rf5 42. Qh2 Bd7 *

[/pgn]
this is complete draw.

and positions are quite different in nature:

- B+R are stronger than N+R, especially with play on both sides
- d5 passed isolated pawn is completely immobile(because of the double R+B lower-power control over the d5 square)
- apart from d4 passed pawn, which is stopped, no other recognisable black weaknessess, no weak/backward pawns, no pawn majorities
- white even does not have space advantage, like c4 black pawn in previous example

so, this requires completely no calculation, obvious draw, the other is very favourable for black

I would have run some 100 or so test games with the Goldin-Korzubov position, randomizing a bit, starting with Qc1, Qf4, Qg5, Qd1 and Qd3, each some 20 games blitz, but no opportunities now, maybe someone can do it instead.

however, I am certain black will win by a considerable margin.

on Wey Yi-whatever, on the other hand, you will have 100 draws.
Lyudmil Tsvetkov
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Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:41 pm

Re: Goldin vs Korzubov, Dushanbe 1980

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov »

played 20 games with SF and Komodo 10 each at 1 min for the game,
as expected, 1 white win, and 19 draws(this concerns the Wei Yi position)

score starts at some 100cps both SF and Komodo and only drops

with the Goldin-Korzubov position I had 7 draws and 13 black wins in the past with same engines, now I repeated the experiment, and got precisely the same score: 7 draws and 13 black wins

score starts at same 100cps both SF and Komodo, and only increases(you can check that even at all your LTC games)

so that, black wins twice as more in Goldin-Korzubov.

Wey Yi is obvious draw.

it is funny top engines show same 100cps advantage for both positions as static eval/shllow search.

that comes to show how imperfect current top engines' evaluation is, even in very simple positions.
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Nordlandia
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Location: Sortland, Norway

Re: Goldin vs Korzubov, Dushanbe 1980

Post by Nordlandia »

This game is very similar in nature ->

Again the knight is excellent posted and cover many important squares.

It looks to me like it should end as draw.

What do you say?

[d]8/3p3k/p4qpp/8/2pN4/P1P3P1/1P2R2P/2K5 b - - 1 38

Here is the full game -> https://lichess.org/KVco5556#75
Lyudmil Tsvetkov
Posts: 6052
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:41 pm

Re: Goldin vs Korzubov, Dushanbe 1980

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov »

Nordlandia wrote:This game is very similar in nature ->

Again the knight is excellent posted and cover many important squares.

It looks to me like it should end as draw.

What do you say?

[d]8/3p3k/p4qpp/8/2pN4/P1P3P1/1P2R2P/2K5 b - - 1 38

Here is the full game -> https://lichess.org/KVco5556#75
sorry, had to fight off viruses all day: will look at it tomorrow.