Goldin vs Korzubov, Dushanbe 1980

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

This game is very similar in nature ->

Again the knight is excellent posted and cover many important squares.

It looks to me like it should end as draw.

What do you say?

[d]8/3p3k/p4qpp/8/2pN4/P1P3P1/1P2R2P/2K5 b - - 1 38

Here is the full game -> https://lichess.org/KVco5556#75

just inputted this to SF, but do not analyse it, as it is an obvious draw for me, unless there is some very special form of zugzwang, which I do not believe.

in distinction to Goldin-Korzubov, the following 3 factors make defence much easier:

- no pawn majorities, 3 vs 3 on the queen side and 2 vs 2 on the king side
- no b black pawn, part of that majority, able to attempt a break with b7-b5-b4, so no break on the queen side
- smaller number of pawns overall, 10 vs 12 in Goldin-Korzubov, which facilitates drawing chances

interestingly, SF gives this position the highest score, 130cps, for unknown reasons, possibly higher queen mobility, or maybe it sees pushing black pawns far on the king side easier, something like that.

in any case, SF evaluation here is misleading, as well as in the 2 other games.

I would say, 3% black winning chances here, almost certain engines will draw all.

[cdani]

If an engine does not see a concrete compensation for the material, it thinks that is ahead by the material difference. So as you sure supposed, is due to lack of knowledge.
It happens the same to Andscacs and Komodo, and sure most others.
I played a bit with the position and I arrived here:
[d]8/3p4/p7/8/2pN1qp1/P1P4k/1PK1R2P/8 w - - 0 53
a typical position that the engine is unable to win but evaluates as a big black advantage.

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

If an engine does not see a concrete compensation for the material, it thinks that is ahead by the material difference. So as you sure supposed, is due to lack of knowledge.
It happens the same to Andscacs and Komodo, and sure most others.
I played a bit with the position and I arrived here:
[d]8/3p4/p7/8/2pN1qp1/P1P4k/1PK1R2P/8 w - - 0 53
a typical position that the engine is unable to win but evaluates as a big black advantage.

well, in terms of imbalance, B+R or N+R vs Q are certainly due some 50-60cps additional bonus in all cases, but the problem is how to successfully tune this to the remaining search and eval terms.

you skip one important term, or add one incorrect one, and the whole balance is shaken.

in any case, above position is very simple: why would Andscacs give more than 50cps black edge?

[cdani]

in any case, above position is very simple: why would Andscacs give more than 50cps black edge?

Because in positions with similar imbalance but not clear at all, is worth more 50cps, and as you know, tunning is for the middle case. So this requires probably specialized knowledge.

[tpoppins]

sorry, do not have time to comment, but how much electricity you wasted on that?

About $0.25's worth. 2x95W CPUs, let's say 200W for the whole system (probably an understatement considering the noise all the fans make) - 200W x 16h = 3.2 kWh x $0.08 (supply+delivery rates).

I hope you did not follow the game live...:)

I did, too! For the first dozen moves or so, at least ;) Naturally, I was doing other stuff at the same time

again Qd1 instead of Qc1 or Qf4, very strange.

black has a simple winning plan after Qf4-b8, a7-a5, b7-b5-b4.

why not at least push the pawn to b4?

White has a simple defensive plan of putting the rook on c2 as soon as the c3 pawn is threatened. The rook, the pawn and the knight on d4 will protect each other; true, their security costs them their mobility. After the a- and the b-pawns are exchanged off Black still has no passers, so the only way to win would be keeping the c3 pawn under pressure while trying to infiltrate with the king to the base of the white pawn chain on the kingside and try and get White into zugzwang.

Two more VLTC games, this time between Houdini 5.01 Pro Tactical and ASM Matefish 170709.

Matefish 170709 x64
Large Pages=on

Houdini 5.01 Pro x64
Tactical Mode=on
Never Clear Hash=on
Contempt=0

Common settings:
Fritz 15.24 GUI
16 cores/threads
HT off
8 GB hash
6-men Syzygy
TB Probe Depth=1
everything else at default

TC: 10h+2m

[pgn][Event "Nordlandia 4, Slow 600m+120s"]
[Site "DellT5600-PC"]
[Date "2017.07.12"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Houdini 5.01 Pro x64-popc"]
[Black "Stockfish 090717 x64 POPCNT M"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[Annotator "-1.43;-1.71"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "6k1/pp3p2/6p1/3p4/2pN4/P1P2P1P/1P1qR1P1/6K1 b - - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "213"]
[TimeControl "36000+120"]

{Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU E5-2670 0 @ 2.60GHz 2593 MHz W=46.9 plies; 38,155kN/s;
107,877,955 TBAs B=47.7 plies; 42,137kN/s; 1,220,585,474 TBAs} 1... Qc1+ {
-1.71/44 1136 Both last book move} 2. Kf2 {-1.43/42 2648} Kg7 {-1.64/50 1024}
3. Nb5 {-1.33/40 482 (Kg3)} a6 {-1.64/52 641 (Qa1)} 4. Nd4 {-1.33/38 21} Kf6 {
-1.64/52 335} 5. Rc2 {-1.27/42 584 (Kg3)} Qd1 {-1.64/50 562 (Qa1)} 6. Re2 {
-1.28/42 607} Qa1 {-1.64/51 882 (b5)} 7. Rc2 {-1.42/44 1161 (Kg3)} Qh1 {
-1.64/46 1023 (b5)} 8. Rd2 {-1.42/46 829} Qc1 {-1.64/53 776 (Qb1)} 9. Rc2 {
-0.01/85 156 (Re2)} Qh1 {-1.62/48 592 (Qa1)} 10. Rd2 {-0.01/85 302 (Re2)} Qa1 {
-1.57/49 771 (Qb1)} 11. Rc2 {-0.01/83 708 (Re2)} Kg7 {-1.57/50 962 (b5)} 12.
Rd2 {-1.36/44 5640 (Re2)} Qb1 {-1.57/50 527 (b5)} 13. Rc2 {-1.42/46 1142 (Re2)}
Kf6 {-1.57/51 701 (Qh1)} 14. Re2 {-1.42/46 541} Kg7 {-1.57/51 728 (b6)} 15. Rc2
{-0.01/75 649 (Rd2)} Kf6 {-1.57/50 669 (Qh1)} 16. Re2 {-0.01/85 30} Kg5 {
-1.57/50 640 (b6)} 17. Re5+ {-1.36/43 1240 (Rd2)} Kh6 {-1.57/50 608} 18. Re2 {
-1.36/48 762} Qc1 {-1.57/51 723 (b5)} 19. Rc2 {-1.48/42 1704} Qh1 {-1.57/53
904 (Qa1)} 20. Re2 {-1.48/42 664} Qa1 {-1.57/50 140 (Qb1)} 21. Kg3 {-1.42/42
585 (Rc2)} Qc1 {-1.57/53 794} 22. Rc2 {-1.42/42 943 (Kf2)} Qe1+ {-1.57/49 937
(Qg1)} 23. Kf4 {-1.30/39 344} Qe7 {-1.57/49 171} 24. Kg3 {-1.30/36 4} b5 {
-1.64/51 3112 (Kg7)} 25. Kf2 {-1.30/42 627 (Re2)} Qc5 {-1.64/50 579 (Qh4+)} 26.
Re2 {-1.54/41 2710 (Kf1)} a5 {-1.64/52 924} 27. Re1 {-1.65/40 1030} Qc7 {
-1.64/49 110 (Qa7)} 28. Ra1 {-1.65/42 495} Qb6 {-1.64/50 570 (Kg7)} 29. Ra2 {
-1.65/39 565 (Kf1)} Qc7 {-1.64/52 729 (Kg7)} 30. Ra1 {-0.01/64 312} Qb6 {
-1.64/51 587 (Kg7)} 31. Ra2 {-0.01/73 4213} Qc5 {-1.64/54 1480 (Kg7)} 32. Ra1 {
-1.65/44 846} Qd6 {-1.64/53 901} 33. Kf1 {-1.65/42 464} Qc5 {-1.64/51 796 (Qb8)
} 34. Kf2 {-0.01/68 257 (Rd1)} Qd6 {-1.64/55 1339} 35. Kf1 {-0.01/69 448} Qf4 {
-1.64/52 108 (Qb8)} 36. Rd1 {-1.02/42 776} b4 {-1.64/54 1151} 37. axb4 {
-1.02/42 25} axb4 {-1.64/53 92} 38. Nc2 {-1.02/42 354} b3 {-1.64/55 624} 39.
Nd4 {-1.02/42 8} Kg7 {-1.64/51 585 (Kh7)} 40. Kf2 {-1.02/44 405 (Ne2)} Qh6 {
-1.64/52 476} 41. Ne2 {-1.02/42 343} Qh4+ {-1.64/55 775} 42. Kf1 {-1.02/43 244}
Qg5 {-1.64/53 113} 43. Nd4 {-1.02/46 399 (Kf2)} Kf6 {-1.64/54 519 (Kf8)} 44.
Re1 {-1.02/45 407 (Ne2)} Qd2 {-1.64/56 395 (Qh4)} 45. Re2 {-1.02/48 471} Qf4 {
-1.64/52 85 (Qc1+)} 46. Kf2 {-1.02/47 345} Qh2 {-1.64/54 461 (Qh4+)} 47. Re8 {
-1.02/46 306 (Re1)} g5 {-1.64/55 536 (Kg7)} 48. Nc6 {-1.02/43 270 (Kf1)} Qd6 {
-1.64/53 380 (Qf4)} 49. Nd4 {-1.02/48 306} Qf4 {-1.64/52 82 (Qc5)} 50. Re1 {
-1.02/47 752} Qd2+ {-1.64/55 583 (Kg6)} 51. Re2 {-1.02/52 337} Qd3 {-1.64/53
76 (Qc1)} 52. Nc6 {-1.02/48 313 (Kg3)} Qd1 {-1.64/53 385} 53. Nd4 {-1.02/45 45}
Qc1 {-1.64/51 160 (Kg7)} 54. Nc6 {-1.02/47 589} Kg7 {-1.64/54 497 (Qf4)} 55.
Ne7 {-1.02/45 198 (Nd4)} Qd1 {-1.64/54 369} 56. Nf5+ {-1.02/48 93 (Nc6)} Kg6 {
-1.64/56 472} 57. Nd4 {-1.02/47 301} Qb1 {-1.64/55 465} 58. Kg3 {-1.02/46 299
(Nc6)} Kh5 {-1.64/54 371 (Qf1)} 59. Kh2 {-1.02/46 348 (Kf2)} Kg6 {-1.64/54 349
(Qc1)} 60. Kg3 {-0.01/72 132} Kh5 {-1.64/55 167 (Qf1)} 61. Kh2 {-0.01/69 191
(Kf2)} Qc1 {-1.64/54 368} 62. Kg3 {-1.02/42 332} Kg6 {-1.64/55 352 (Qf4+)} 63.
Kf2 {-1.02/48 267} Qa1 {-1.64/54 363 (Qf4)} 64. Nc6 {-1.02/45 175 (Kg3)} Kh5 {
-1.64/50 320 (Kh6)} 65. Nd4 {-1.02/42 187} Kg6 {-1.64/55 204 (Qa5)} 66. Nc6 {
-0.01/66 93 (Kg3)} Qd1 {-1.64/53 294 (Kh6)} 67. Nd4 {-0.01/46 150} Kh5 {
-1.64/53 291 (Qb1)} 68. Nf5 {-0.36/41 291 (Re8)} Qc1 {-0.36/51 580 (Qd3)} 69.
Ne7 {-0.01/36 82 (g4+)} Qd1 {-0.35/50 328 (d4)} 70. Nf5 {-0.01/37 333} Qd3 {
-0.29/51 466} 71. Re3 {-0.27/41 351} Qd2+ {-0.28/51 295 (Qc2+)} 72. Re2 {
-0.27/42 136} Qd1 {-0.21/51 397 (Qf4)} 73. Re1 {-0.27/40 38} Qc2+ {-0.14/48 478
} 74. Re2 {-0.01/41 100} Qd1 {-0.14/52 218 (Qc1)} 75. Re1 {-0.01/51 120} Qd3 {
-0.14/53 221 (Qd2+)} 76. Re3 {-0.01/57 117} Qc2+ {-0.14/53 103 (Qb1)} 77. Re2 {
-0.01/85 83} Qb1 {-0.14/55 387 (Qd3)} 78. Ne7 {-0.01/41 177 (g4+)} d4 {0.00/48
395 (Qa1)} 79. g4+ {-0.01/42 106} Kh6 {0.00/50 62} 80. Nf5+ {-0.01/43 14} Kg6 {
0.00/50 819 (Kh7)} 81. Nxd4 {-0.01/44 159} f6 {0.00/31 208 (Qd1)} 82. Nf5 {
-0.01/44 202} Qc2 {0.00/32 229 (Qh1)} 83. Ne7+ {-0.01/40 145 (Ke3)} Kh7 {
0.00/31 255 (Kg7)} 84. Nc6 {-0.01/38 160 (Nf5)} Qd1 {0.00/38 204} 85. Nd4 {
-0.01/39 20} Kg6 {0.00/32 130 (Qh1)} 86. Re7 {-0.01/43 115 (Nf5)} Qc1 {0.00/32
223 (Qd2+)} 87. Nf5 {-0.01/48 178} Qd2+ {0.00/33 60} 88. Re2 {-0.01/48 138
(Kg3)} Qc1 {0.00/32 503 (Qd1)} 89. Re7 {-0.01/44 141} Qd2+ {0.00/33 262} 90.
Re2 {-0.01/59 279} Qc1 {0.00/32 133 (Qd1)} 91. Ne7+ {-0.01/43 142 (Re7)} Kf7 {
0.00/44 68 (Kg7)} 92. Nf5 {-0.01/48 76} Qc2 {0.00/30 152 (Kg6)} 93. Nd6+ {
-0.01/38 121 (h4)} Kg8 {0.00/32 115 (Kg6)} 94. Nxc4 {-0.01/37 87} Qd1 {0.00/31
145 (Qb1)} 95. Nd2 {-0.01/37 117} Qh1 {0.00/31 120} 96. c4 {-0.01/36 152 (Nxb3)
} Qh2+ {0.00/39 74 (Qxh3)} 97. Ke3 {-0.01/33 161} Qe5+ {0.00/28 167 (Qxh3)} 98.
Ne4 {-0.01/35 0} Qf4+ {0.00/27 120} 99. Kf2 {-0.01/39 156} Qh2+ {0.00/29 120}
100. Ke1 {-0.01/36 115 (Ke3)} Qxh3 {0.00/39 70 (Qg1+)} 101. Nxf6+ {-0.01/37
118 (Re3)} Kg7 {0.00/45 74} 102. Nh5+ {-0.01/36 18} Kf7 {0.00/41 164 (Kg6)}
103. Kf2 {-0.01/41 137} Qh2+ {0.00/40 172} 104. Kf1 {-0.01/37 36} Qh1+ {
0.00/46 18} 105. Kf2 {-0.01/1 0} Qh2+ {0.00/41 222} 106. Kf1 {-0.01/39 196}
Qh1+ {0.00/40 43} 107. Kf2 {-0.01/1 0} Qh2+ {0.00/46 197 Draw accepted} 1/2-1/2

[Event "Nordlandia 4, Slow 600m+120s"]
[Site "DellT5600-PC"]
[Date "2017.07.13"]
[Round "2"]
[White "Stockfish 090717 x64 POPCNT M"]
[Black "Houdini 5.01 Pro x64-popc"]
[Result "0-1"]
[Annotator "-2.07;-1.51"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "6k1/pp3p2/6p1/3p4/2pN4/P1P2P1P/1P1qR1P1/6K1 b - - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "75"]
[TimeControl "36000+120"]

{Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU E5-2670 0 @ 2.60GHz 2593 MHz W=49.2 plies; 43,927kN/s; 1,
783,234,354 TBAs B=40.1 plies; 38,924kN/s; 75,308,977 TBAs} 1... Qc1+ {-1.71/
44 1136 Both last book move} 2. Kf2 {-2.07/50 5688} Kg7 {-1.51/40 1299} 3. Rc2
{-2.08/47 856 (Kg3)} Qa1 {-1.51/46 639 (Qd1)} 4. Rd2 {-2.15/45 898} a6 {
-1.51/45 151 (Qb1)} 5. Rc2 {-2.15/47 553} Qb1 {-1.51/48 682} 6. Kg3 {-2.22/47
606 (Re2)} Qe1+ {-1.63/37 538 (Qg1)} 7. Kf4 {-2.22/51 550} Kf6 {-1.61/42 1472}
8. Re2 {-2.22/51 166} Qh4+ {-1.63/43 596} 9. Ke3 {-2.22/53 518} Kg5 {-1.63/41
177 (Qg5+)} 10. Kd2 {-2.11/44 398 (Nc2)} Kf4 {-1.87/38 476} 11. Kc2 {-2.26/47
2139 (Kd1)} Kg3 {-1.93/41 521} 12. Kd1 {-2.62/45 1214 (Rd2)} Qf6 {-1.93/40
1283 (Qg5)} 13. Rd2 {-2.47/43 353} Qg5 {-2.07/41 1071 (b5)} 14. Re2 {-2.66/45
1328 (Rc2)} b5 {-2.07/42 714} 15. Rd2 {-2.78/45 810} Qd8 {-2.14/40 636 (Qe3)}
16. Nc6 {-2.78/46 482 (Ke1)} Qb6 {-2.14/42 856 (Qe8)} 17. Nd4 {-2.82/47 634}
Qc5 {-2.14/43 1496 (Qd8)} 18. Ke1 {-2.83/47 530} Qe7+ {-2.07/40 425} 19. Kd1 {
-2.83/50 608 (Re2)} Qe8 {-2.28/36 464 (Qg5)} 20. Nc2 {-2.83/48 566} a5 {
-2.21/44 2015} 21. Re2 {-2.83/47 140 (Nd4)} Qd7 {-2.28/39 524 (Qc8)} 22. Nd4 {
-2.83/48 533 (Rd2)} b4 {-2.63/41 487 (Qb7)} 23. cxb4 {-3.23/48 2201 (axb4)}
axb4 {-2.70/42 813} 24. axb4 {-3.53/50 1004} Qa4+ {-2.70/43 1} 25. Kc1 {
-3.53/52 595} Qxb4 {-2.70/44 952} 26. Rd2 {-3.53/52 543 (Kd1)} c3 {-2.70/45
1263} 27. bxc3 {-3.53/53 165} Qxc3+ {-2.70/46 2} 28. Kd1 {-3.53/57 609} Qc4 {
-2.77/45 1493 (Qa1+)} 29. Nc2 {-3.60/53 697} f5 {-3.49/40 1073 (Qb3)} 30. Nd4 {
-3.68/54 632} Qc7 {-4.06/36 876 (Qc5)} 31. Nc2 {-3.68/53 616} Qc3 {-4.41/42
455 (Qc4)} 32. Ne1 {-4.16/52 1042 (Nd4)} Qb3+ {-5.14/37 423 (Qa1+)} 33. Kc1 {
-4.16/56 601} Qa3+ {-5.74/38 420 (Qc3+)} 34. Kd1 {-4.16/59 462} Qa4+ {-6.02/39
640 (Qa1+)} 35. Nc2 {-4.16/57 516 (Ke2)} d4 {-7.57/30 409 (Qb5)} 36. Rxd4 {
-8.54/49 2886} Qb3 {-7.81/29 471} 37. h4 {-12.08/44 3346} Kxg2 {-7.81/27 0} 38.
Kd2 {-15.99/39 567} Kf2 {-8.70/30 394} 0-1

[/pgn]

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

sorry, do not have time to comment, but how much electricity you wasted on that?

About $0.25's worth. 2x95W CPUs, let's say 200W for the whole system (probably an understatement considering the noise all the fans make) - 200W x 16h = 3.2 kWh x $0.08 (supply+delivery rates).

I hope you did not follow the game live...

I did, too! For the first dozen moves or so, at least Naturally, I was doing other stuff at the same time

again Qd1 instead of Qc1 or Qf4, very strange.

black has a simple winning plan after Qf4-b8, a7-a5, b7-b5-b4.

why not at least push the pawn to b4?

White has a simple defensive plan of putting the rook on c2 as soon as the c3 pawn is threatened. The rook, the pawn and the knight on d4 will protect each other; true, their security costs them their mobility. After the a- and the b-pawns are exchanged off Black still has no passers, so the only way to win would be keeping the c3 pawn under pressure while trying to infiltrate with the king to the base of the white pawn chain on the kingside and try and get White into zugzwang.

Two more VLTC games, this time between Houdini 5.01 Pro Tactical and ASM Matefish 170709.

Matefish 170709 x64
Large Pages=on

Houdini 5.01 Pro x64
Tactical Mode=on
Never Clear Hash=on
Contempt=0

Common settings:
Fritz 15.24 GUI
16 cores/threads
HT off
8 GB hash
6-men Syzygy
TB Probe Depth=1
everything else at default

TC: 10h+2m

[pgn][Event "Nordlandia 4, Slow 600m+120s"]
[Site "DellT5600-PC"]
[Date "2017.07.12"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Houdini 5.01 Pro x64-popc"]
[Black "Stockfish 090717 x64 POPCNT M"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[Annotator "-1.43;-1.71"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "6k1/pp3p2/6p1/3p4/2pN4/P1P2P1P/1P1qR1P1/6K1 b - - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "213"]
[TimeControl "36000+120"]

{Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU E5-2670 0 @ 2.60GHz 2593 MHz W=46.9 plies; 38,155kN/s;
107,877,955 TBAs B=47.7 plies; 42,137kN/s; 1,220,585,474 TBAs} 1... Qc1+ {
-1.71/44 1136 Both last book move} 2. Kf2 {-1.43/42 2648} Kg7 {-1.64/50 1024}
3. Nb5 {-1.33/40 482 (Kg3)} a6 {-1.64/52 641 (Qa1)} 4. Nd4 {-1.33/38 21} Kf6 {
-1.64/52 335} 5. Rc2 {-1.27/42 584 (Kg3)} Qd1 {-1.64/50 562 (Qa1)} 6. Re2 {
-1.28/42 607} Qa1 {-1.64/51 882 (b5)} 7. Rc2 {-1.42/44 1161 (Kg3)} Qh1 {
-1.64/46 1023 (b5)} 8. Rd2 {-1.42/46 829} Qc1 {-1.64/53 776 (Qb1)} 9. Rc2 {
-0.01/85 156 (Re2)} Qh1 {-1.62/48 592 (Qa1)} 10. Rd2 {-0.01/85 302 (Re2)} Qa1 {
-1.57/49 771 (Qb1)} 11. Rc2 {-0.01/83 708 (Re2)} Kg7 {-1.57/50 962 (b5)} 12.
Rd2 {-1.36/44 5640 (Re2)} Qb1 {-1.57/50 527 (b5)} 13. Rc2 {-1.42/46 1142 (Re2)}
Kf6 {-1.57/51 701 (Qh1)} 14. Re2 {-1.42/46 541} Kg7 {-1.57/51 728 (b6)} 15. Rc2
{-0.01/75 649 (Rd2)} Kf6 {-1.57/50 669 (Qh1)} 16. Re2 {-0.01/85 30} Kg5 {
-1.57/50 640 (b6)} 17. Re5+ {-1.36/43 1240 (Rd2)} Kh6 {-1.57/50 608} 18. Re2 {
-1.36/48 762} Qc1 {-1.57/51 723 (b5)} 19. Rc2 {-1.48/42 1704} Qh1 {-1.57/53
904 (Qa1)} 20. Re2 {-1.48/42 664} Qa1 {-1.57/50 140 (Qb1)} 21. Kg3 {-1.42/42
585 (Rc2)} Qc1 {-1.57/53 794} 22. Rc2 {-1.42/42 943 (Kf2)} Qe1+ {-1.57/49 937
(Qg1)} 23. Kf4 {-1.30/39 344} Qe7 {-1.57/49 171} 24. Kg3 {-1.30/36 4} b5 {
-1.64/51 3112 (Kg7)} 25. Kf2 {-1.30/42 627 (Re2)} Qc5 {-1.64/50 579 (Qh4+)} 26.
Re2 {-1.54/41 2710 (Kf1)} a5 {-1.64/52 924} 27. Re1 {-1.65/40 1030} Qc7 {
-1.64/49 110 (Qa7)} 28. Ra1 {-1.65/42 495} Qb6 {-1.64/50 570 (Kg7)} 29. Ra2 {
-1.65/39 565 (Kf1)} Qc7 {-1.64/52 729 (Kg7)} 30. Ra1 {-0.01/64 312} Qb6 {
-1.64/51 587 (Kg7)} 31. Ra2 {-0.01/73 4213} Qc5 {-1.64/54 1480 (Kg7)} 32. Ra1 {
-1.65/44 846} Qd6 {-1.64/53 901} 33. Kf1 {-1.65/42 464} Qc5 {-1.64/51 796 (Qb8)
} 34. Kf2 {-0.01/68 257 (Rd1)} Qd6 {-1.64/55 1339} 35. Kf1 {-0.01/69 448} Qf4 {
-1.64/52 108 (Qb8)} 36. Rd1 {-1.02/42 776} b4 {-1.64/54 1151} 37. axb4 {
-1.02/42 25} axb4 {-1.64/53 92} 38. Nc2 {-1.02/42 354} b3 {-1.64/55 624} 39.
Nd4 {-1.02/42 8} Kg7 {-1.64/51 585 (Kh7)} 40. Kf2 {-1.02/44 405 (Ne2)} Qh6 {
-1.64/52 476} 41. Ne2 {-1.02/42 343} Qh4+ {-1.64/55 775} 42. Kf1 {-1.02/43 244}
Qg5 {-1.64/53 113} 43. Nd4 {-1.02/46 399 (Kf2)} Kf6 {-1.64/54 519 (Kf8)} 44.
Re1 {-1.02/45 407 (Ne2)} Qd2 {-1.64/56 395 (Qh4)} 45. Re2 {-1.02/48 471} Qf4 {
-1.64/52 85 (Qc1+)} 46. Kf2 {-1.02/47 345} Qh2 {-1.64/54 461 (Qh4+)} 47. Re8 {
-1.02/46 306 (Re1)} g5 {-1.64/55 536 (Kg7)} 48. Nc6 {-1.02/43 270 (Kf1)} Qd6 {
-1.64/53 380 (Qf4)} 49. Nd4 {-1.02/48 306} Qf4 {-1.64/52 82 (Qc5)} 50. Re1 {
-1.02/47 752} Qd2+ {-1.64/55 583 (Kg6)} 51. Re2 {-1.02/52 337} Qd3 {-1.64/53
76 (Qc1)} 52. Nc6 {-1.02/48 313 (Kg3)} Qd1 {-1.64/53 385} 53. Nd4 {-1.02/45 45}
Qc1 {-1.64/51 160 (Kg7)} 54. Nc6 {-1.02/47 589} Kg7 {-1.64/54 497 (Qf4)} 55.
Ne7 {-1.02/45 198 (Nd4)} Qd1 {-1.64/54 369} 56. Nf5+ {-1.02/48 93 (Nc6)} Kg6 {
-1.64/56 472} 57. Nd4 {-1.02/47 301} Qb1 {-1.64/55 465} 58. Kg3 {-1.02/46 299
(Nc6)} Kh5 {-1.64/54 371 (Qf1)} 59. Kh2 {-1.02/46 348 (Kf2)} Kg6 {-1.64/54 349
(Qc1)} 60. Kg3 {-0.01/72 132} Kh5 {-1.64/55 167 (Qf1)} 61. Kh2 {-0.01/69 191
(Kf2)} Qc1 {-1.64/54 368} 62. Kg3 {-1.02/42 332} Kg6 {-1.64/55 352 (Qf4+)} 63.
Kf2 {-1.02/48 267} Qa1 {-1.64/54 363 (Qf4)} 64. Nc6 {-1.02/45 175 (Kg3)} Kh5 {
-1.64/50 320 (Kh6)} 65. Nd4 {-1.02/42 187} Kg6 {-1.64/55 204 (Qa5)} 66. Nc6 {
-0.01/66 93 (Kg3)} Qd1 {-1.64/53 294 (Kh6)} 67. Nd4 {-0.01/46 150} Kh5 {
-1.64/53 291 (Qb1)} 68. Nf5 {-0.36/41 291 (Re8)} Qc1 {-0.36/51 580 (Qd3)} 69.
Ne7 {-0.01/36 82 (g4+)} Qd1 {-0.35/50 328 (d4)} 70. Nf5 {-0.01/37 333} Qd3 {
-0.29/51 466} 71. Re3 {-0.27/41 351} Qd2+ {-0.28/51 295 (Qc2+)} 72. Re2 {
-0.27/42 136} Qd1 {-0.21/51 397 (Qf4)} 73. Re1 {-0.27/40 38} Qc2+ {-0.14/48 478
} 74. Re2 {-0.01/41 100} Qd1 {-0.14/52 218 (Qc1)} 75. Re1 {-0.01/51 120} Qd3 {
-0.14/53 221 (Qd2+)} 76. Re3 {-0.01/57 117} Qc2+ {-0.14/53 103 (Qb1)} 77. Re2 {
-0.01/85 83} Qb1 {-0.14/55 387 (Qd3)} 78. Ne7 {-0.01/41 177 (g4+)} d4 {0.00/48
395 (Qa1)} 79. g4+ {-0.01/42 106} Kh6 {0.00/50 62} 80. Nf5+ {-0.01/43 14} Kg6 {
0.00/50 819 (Kh7)} 81. Nxd4 {-0.01/44 159} f6 {0.00/31 208 (Qd1)} 82. Nf5 {
-0.01/44 202} Qc2 {0.00/32 229 (Qh1)} 83. Ne7+ {-0.01/40 145 (Ke3)} Kh7 {
0.00/31 255 (Kg7)} 84. Nc6 {-0.01/38 160 (Nf5)} Qd1 {0.00/38 204} 85. Nd4 {
-0.01/39 20} Kg6 {0.00/32 130 (Qh1)} 86. Re7 {-0.01/43 115 (Nf5)} Qc1 {0.00/32
223 (Qd2+)} 87. Nf5 {-0.01/48 178} Qd2+ {0.00/33 60} 88. Re2 {-0.01/48 138
(Kg3)} Qc1 {0.00/32 503 (Qd1)} 89. Re7 {-0.01/44 141} Qd2+ {0.00/33 262} 90.
Re2 {-0.01/59 279} Qc1 {0.00/32 133 (Qd1)} 91. Ne7+ {-0.01/43 142 (Re7)} Kf7 {
0.00/44 68 (Kg7)} 92. Nf5 {-0.01/48 76} Qc2 {0.00/30 152 (Kg6)} 93. Nd6+ {
-0.01/38 121 (h4)} Kg8 {0.00/32 115 (Kg6)} 94. Nxc4 {-0.01/37 87} Qd1 {0.00/31
145 (Qb1)} 95. Nd2 {-0.01/37 117} Qh1 {0.00/31 120} 96. c4 {-0.01/36 152 (Nxb3)
} Qh2+ {0.00/39 74 (Qxh3)} 97. Ke3 {-0.01/33 161} Qe5+ {0.00/28 167 (Qxh3)} 98.
Ne4 {-0.01/35 0} Qf4+ {0.00/27 120} 99. Kf2 {-0.01/39 156} Qh2+ {0.00/29 120}
100. Ke1 {-0.01/36 115 (Ke3)} Qxh3 {0.00/39 70 (Qg1+)} 101. Nxf6+ {-0.01/37
118 (Re3)} Kg7 {0.00/45 74} 102. Nh5+ {-0.01/36 18} Kf7 {0.00/41 164 (Kg6)}
103. Kf2 {-0.01/41 137} Qh2+ {0.00/40 172} 104. Kf1 {-0.01/37 36} Qh1+ {
0.00/46 18} 105. Kf2 {-0.01/1 0} Qh2+ {0.00/41 222} 106. Kf1 {-0.01/39 196}
Qh1+ {0.00/40 43} 107. Kf2 {-0.01/1 0} Qh2+ {0.00/46 197 Draw accepted} 1/2-1/2

[Event "Nordlandia 4, Slow 600m+120s"]
[Site "DellT5600-PC"]
[Date "2017.07.13"]
[Round "2"]
[White "Stockfish 090717 x64 POPCNT M"]
[Black "Houdini 5.01 Pro x64-popc"]
[Result "0-1"]
[Annotator "-2.07;-1.51"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "6k1/pp3p2/6p1/3p4/2pN4/P1P2P1P/1P1qR1P1/6K1 b - - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "75"]
[TimeControl "36000+120"]

{Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU E5-2670 0 @ 2.60GHz 2593 MHz W=49.2 plies; 43,927kN/s; 1,
783,234,354 TBAs B=40.1 plies; 38,924kN/s; 75,308,977 TBAs} 1... Qc1+ {-1.71/
44 1136 Both last book move} 2. Kf2 {-2.07/50 5688} Kg7 {-1.51/40 1299} 3. Rc2
{-2.08/47 856 (Kg3)} Qa1 {-1.51/46 639 (Qd1)} 4. Rd2 {-2.15/45 898} a6 {
-1.51/45 151 (Qb1)} 5. Rc2 {-2.15/47 553} Qb1 {-1.51/48 682} 6. Kg3 {-2.22/47
606 (Re2)} Qe1+ {-1.63/37 538 (Qg1)} 7. Kf4 {-2.22/51 550} Kf6 {-1.61/42 1472}
8. Re2 {-2.22/51 166} Qh4+ {-1.63/43 596} 9. Ke3 {-2.22/53 518} Kg5 {-1.63/41
177 (Qg5+)} 10. Kd2 {-2.11/44 398 (Nc2)} Kf4 {-1.87/38 476} 11. Kc2 {-2.26/47
2139 (Kd1)} Kg3 {-1.93/41 521} 12. Kd1 {-2.62/45 1214 (Rd2)} Qf6 {-1.93/40
1283 (Qg5)} 13. Rd2 {-2.47/43 353} Qg5 {-2.07/41 1071 (b5)} 14. Re2 {-2.66/45
1328 (Rc2)} b5 {-2.07/42 714} 15. Rd2 {-2.78/45 810} Qd8 {-2.14/40 636 (Qe3)}
16. Nc6 {-2.78/46 482 (Ke1)} Qb6 {-2.14/42 856 (Qe8)} 17. Nd4 {-2.82/47 634}
Qc5 {-2.14/43 1496 (Qd8)} 18. Ke1 {-2.83/47 530} Qe7+ {-2.07/40 425} 19. Kd1 {
-2.83/50 608 (Re2)} Qe8 {-2.28/36 464 (Qg5)} 20. Nc2 {-2.83/48 566} a5 {
-2.21/44 2015} 21. Re2 {-2.83/47 140 (Nd4)} Qd7 {-2.28/39 524 (Qc8)} 22. Nd4 {
-2.83/48 533 (Rd2)} b4 {-2.63/41 487 (Qb7)} 23. cxb4 {-3.23/48 2201 (axb4)}
axb4 {-2.70/42 813} 24. axb4 {-3.53/50 1004} Qa4+ {-2.70/43 1} 25. Kc1 {
-3.53/52 595} Qxb4 {-2.70/44 952} 26. Rd2 {-3.53/52 543 (Kd1)} c3 {-2.70/45
1263} 27. bxc3 {-3.53/53 165} Qxc3+ {-2.70/46 2} 28. Kd1 {-3.53/57 609} Qc4 {
-2.77/45 1493 (Qa1+)} 29. Nc2 {-3.60/53 697} f5 {-3.49/40 1073 (Qb3)} 30. Nd4 {
-3.68/54 632} Qc7 {-4.06/36 876 (Qc5)} 31. Nc2 {-3.68/53 616} Qc3 {-4.41/42
455 (Qc4)} 32. Ne1 {-4.16/52 1042 (Nd4)} Qb3+ {-5.14/37 423 (Qa1+)} 33. Kc1 {
-4.16/56 601} Qa3+ {-5.74/38 420 (Qc3+)} 34. Kd1 {-4.16/59 462} Qa4+ {-6.02/39
640 (Qa1+)} 35. Nc2 {-4.16/57 516 (Ke2)} d4 {-7.57/30 409 (Qb5)} 36. Rxd4 {
-8.54/49 2886} Qb3 {-7.81/29 471} 37. h4 {-12.08/44 3346} Kxg2 {-7.81/27 0} 38.
Kd2 {-15.99/39 567} Kf2 {-8.70/30 394} 0-1

[/pgn]

thanks, Mr. Poppins.(you still did not tell me your name, Ted, Tim, Tom?)

I was very much afraid you will post 2 dry draws again, but one black win is just fine.

this goes to show the position is not dry draw.

sorry, I have to post in at least a couple of game threads with quite difficult positions, so I already start forgetting where exctly I am posting and to what game my comments refer.

guess I will have to dsicontinue one or 2 games, especially that stupid Harm position.

[Nordlandia]

Latest Komodo is not able to beat SF Dev.

[pgn][Event "Cutechess 1.0.0 | i7-5960X 4.1"]
[Site "https://lichess.org/0blULaC4"]
[Date "2017.07.28"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Stockfish_17072711_x64_bmi2"]
[Black "komodo-11.2.2-64bit"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[WhiteElo "?"]
[BlackElo "?"]
[Variant "From Position"]
[TimeControl "-"]
[ECO "?"]
[Opening "?"]
[Termination "Normal"]
[FEN "6k1/pp3p2/6p1/3p4/2pN4/P1P2P1P/1P1qR1P1/6K1 b - - 0 1"]
[SetUp "1"]
[Annotator "lichess.org"]

1... Qc1+ 2. Kh2 Qf1 3. h4 Kg7 4. g4 b5 5. Kg3 a5 6. Kf4 f6 7. g5 Qc1+ 8. Kg4 f5+ 9. Kg3 b4 10. axb4 axb4 11. Rc2 Qb1 12. Ne6+ Kg8 13. Nd4 bxc3 14. bxc3 Kf7 15. Re2 Qb8+ 16. f4 Qb1 17. Kf2 Qh1 18. Nf3 Qc1 19. Re3 Qb2+ 20. Kg3 Qa1 21. Kf2 Qa2+ 22. Ke1 Qc2 23. Nd4 Qg2 24. Ne2 Qg4 25. Re5 Qf3 26. Kd2 Qd3+ 27. Ke1 d4 28. cxd4 c3 29. Kf2 Qd2 30. Rc5 c2 31. Kf3 Kf8 32. Rc8+ Ke7 33. Rc7+ Kd8 34. Rc6 Kd7 35. Rc5 Ke7 36. Rc7+ Kd6 37. Rc5 Kd7 38. Rd5+ Kc7 39. Rc5+ Kb7 40. Rb5+ { The game is a draw. } Ka6 1/2-1/2[/pgn]

Lichess analysis - https://lichess.org/0blULaC4

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

Latest Komodo is not able to beat SF Dev.

[pgn][Event "Cutechess 1.0.0 | i7-5960X 4.1"]
[Site "https://lichess.org/0blULaC4"]
[Date "2017.07.28"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Stockfish_17072711_x64_bmi2"]
[Black "komodo-11.2.2-64bit"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[WhiteElo "?"]
[BlackElo "?"]
[Variant "From Position"]
[TimeControl "-"]
[ECO "?"]
[Opening "?"]
[Termination "Normal"]
[FEN "6k1/pp3p2/6p1/3p4/2pN4/P1P2P1P/1P1qR1P1/6K1 b - - 0 1"]
[SetUp "1"]
[Annotator "lichess.org"]

1... Qc1+ 2. Kh2 Qf1 3. h4 Kg7 4. g4 b5 5. Kg3 a5 6. Kf4 f6 7. g5 Qc1+ 8. Kg4 f5+ 9. Kg3 b4 10. axb4 axb4 11. Rc2 Qb1 12. Ne6+ Kg8 13. Nd4 bxc3 14. bxc3 Kf7 15. Re2 Qb8+ 16. f4 Qb1 17. Kf2 Qh1 18. Nf3 Qc1 19. Re3 Qb2+ 20. Kg3 Qa1 21. Kf2 Qa2+ 22. Ke1 Qc2 23. Nd4 Qg2 24. Ne2 Qg4 25. Re5 Qf3 26. Kd2 Qd3+ 27. Ke1 d4 28. cxd4 c3 29. Kf2 Qd2 30. Rc5 c2 31. Kf3 Kf8 32. Rc8+ Ke7 33. Rc7+ Kd8 34. Rc6 Kd7 35. Rc5 Ke7 36. Rc7+ Kd6 37. Rc5 Kd7 38. Rd5+ Kc7 39. Rc5+ Kb7 40. Rb5+ { The game is a draw. } Ka6 1/2-1/2[/pgn]

Lichess analysis - https://lichess.org/0blULaC4

we already know all engine games with this position on your computer end with a draw.

2...Qf1 is quite strange try at a win.

as said, Qf4-b8 seems much better.

anyway, we are not going to resolve that any time soon.

the closer the borderline between a win and a draw, a draw and a loss, the more difficult the solution, the variation with perfect play, and hence the known outcome.

mates in 2, on the other hand, are very easy to find, even for the weakest players, and perfect play in that case is obvious.

what is necessary here is to see a line of maybe 80 perfect moves, for black and white, if you go wrong, even once, at ply 1, ply 2, ply 10 or ply 28, then the solution might already have been compromised.

with that said, I insist black wins.