Kasparov-Deep Thought 1997 (second game)

[Leo]

I cant really fault Kasparov for resigning. Look at all the debate and massive computer search going over and over variations to solve this.

[Milos]

I cant really fault Kasparov for resigning. Look at all the debate and massive computer search going over and over variations to solve this.

There is no debate at all. There is one single troll and bunch of ppl who always get hooked.
Kasparov resigned in a position that is proven beyond any reasonable doubt to be drawn already long ago. So all further discussion is just beating of a dead horse.

[tpoppins]

It's clear to everybody (except Lyudmil Tsvetkov) that 46.Ra6 leads to a clear draw, unless black blunders somewhere. White can win only in Wonderland (Alice in wonderland, never heardt of it? :) ).

wonderland is right here on the forum, whenever I post some stuff.

You know, Lyudmil, just when I think your trolling could not possibly get any more outrageous you post something like this ... and totally redeem yourself!
;)

[MikeB]

I cant really fault Kasparov for resigning. Look at all the debate and massive computer search going over and over variations to solve this.

There is no debate at all. There is one single troll and bunch of ppl who always get hooked.
Kasparov resigned in a position that is proven beyond any reasonable doubt to be drawn already long ago. So all further discussion is just beating of a dead horse.

+1 - it was known on same day Kasparov resigned, he resigned a drawn position - it was all over the internet back in the day and confirmed by his seconds the next day...but DB did miss some moves - no question and the programs today are much more sophisticated ...if Joel Benjamin was playing DB he would have won ,,,the simple reason he had unfettered access to Deep Blue and knew better than anyone how to beat DB. DB was not infallible and was probably 700-800 ELO weaker than K or SF on top hardware today. Against Deep Blue , most of the top GMs of they would have been able to draw DB, part of the problem for GK was in his head - he came to believe DB was infallible...and IBM bailed on Deep Blue as soon as it was over - one reason I suspect now ( and not then), is that they knew they got lucky - top gms would hold out another 5 or so years before computers really took over...it's shame that top gms today refuse to play top programs in public now - that era is over...

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

It's clear to everybody (except Lyudmil Tsvetkov) that 46.Ra6 leads to a clear draw, unless black blunders somewhere. White can win only in Wonderland (Alice in wonderland, never heardt of it? ).

wonderland is right here on the forum, whenever I post some stuff.

You know, Lyudmil, just when I think your trolling could not possibly get any more outrageous you post something like this ... and totally redeem yourself!

sorry, could not get to the film, publicity intervened unpleasantly.

I guess you could do a better job by using your multiple cores for analysing, for example, the position arising after the Qc4 and Qg4 moves, the last one I posted, which is of essence for deciding how easily white wins.

we still don't know the answer there.

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

I cant really fault Kasparov for resigning. Look at all the debate and massive computer search going over and over variations to solve this.

There is no debate at all. There is one single troll and bunch of ppl who always get hooked.
Kasparov resigned in a position that is proven beyond any reasonable doubt to be drawn already long ago. So all further discussion is just beating of a dead horse.

right, and they concluded 'it all ends by a perpetual'.

where is the perpetual, it would be very kind of you to provide the relevant line?

otherwise, considering a position equal in which at least 90% of all lines are white wins and black has only some indeed miraculous escapes is, to say the least, outrageous.

as you would repeat the word trolling 10 times per day/thread, I am eagerly waiting for the drawing line/perpetual check.

unless you don't post it, I will consider you to be the real troll.

[Rodolfo Leoni]

It's clear to everybody (except Lyudmil Tsvetkov) that 46.Ra6 leads to a clear draw, unless black blunders somewhere. White can win only in Wonderland (Alice in wonderland, never heardt of it? ).

wonderland is right here on the forum, whenever I post some stuff.

You know, Lyudmil, just when I think your trolling could not possibly get any more outrageous you post something like this ... and totally redeem yourself!

sorry, could not get to the film, publicity intervened unpleasantly.

I guess you could do a better job by using your multiple cores for analysing, for example, the position arising after the Qc4 and Qg4 moves, the last one I posted, which is of essence for deciding how easily white wins.

we still don't know the answer there.

Indeed, a Do -> Loop. His parents forgot an "Exit Do" line in his genetics.

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

I cant really fault Kasparov for resigning. Look at all the debate and massive computer search going over and over variations to solve this.

There is no debate at all. There is one single troll and bunch of ppl who always get hooked.
Kasparov resigned in a position that is proven beyond any reasonable doubt to be drawn already long ago. So all further discussion is just beating of a dead horse.

+1 - it was known on same day Kasparov resigned, he resigned a drawn position - it was all over the internet back in the day and confirmed by his seconds the next day...but DB did miss some moves - no question and the programs today are much more sophisticated ...if Joel Benjamin was playing DB he would have won ,,,the simple reason he had unfettered access to Deep Blue and knew better than anyone how to beat DB. DB was not infallible and was probably 700-800 ELO weaker than K or SF on top hardware today. Against Deep Blue , most of the top GMs of they would have been able to draw DB, part of the problem for GK was in his head - he came to believe DB was infallible...and IBM bailed on Deep Blue as soon as it was over - one reason I suspect now ( and not then), is that they knew they got lucky - top gms would hold out another 5 or so years before computers really took over...it's shame that top gms today refuse to play top programs in public now - that era is over...

how could they have known it then, lacking strong programs, when we still don't know it today, provided we have the like of SF?

for example, in the Qf5 defence line, critical for the final conclusion, white arrives by force after Qc4 capture and Qg4 check(Qd4 e3 Qc4 Qe5 Qg4) to the below position:

[d]3q2k1/6p1/3r1p1p/2R5/1P2Q3/2P4P/6P1/5K2 b - - 0 19

what is this?
how could you claim black has draw, when you simply don't know what is this?
did you analyse it?
did you play some games with it?

what if white actually wins, which is my estimation?

how you could possibly call a position where 90% of lines are white wins a draw?

that is certainly beyond my understanding.

[Rodolfo Leoni]

Do

how could they have known it then, lacking strong programs, when we still don't know it today, provided we have the like of SF?

for example, in the Qf5 defence line, critical for the final conclusion, white arrives by force after Qc4 capture and Qg4 check(Qd4 e3 Qc4 Qe5 Qg4) to the below position:

[d]3q2k1/6p1/3r1p1p/2R5/1P2Q3/2P4P/6P1/5K2 b - - 0 19

what is this?
how could you claim black has draw, when you simply don't know what is this?
did you analyse it?
did you play some games with it?

what if white actually wins, which is my estimation?

how you could possibly call a position where 90% of lines are white wins a draw?

that is certainly beyond my understanding.

Loop

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

In his recent book, Deep Thinking, Kasparov states that after 45. Ta6 ? the game was really lost, not draw as it was at that time thought.

John Nunn

http://en.chessbase.com/post/komodo-8-d ... d-part-one
says that was draw.

Who is right ?

Chessbase.

45..Qe3 draws. 46.Qxd6 Re8 47.h4 h5 with perpetual check.

The right move was 45. Qd7+ not Ra6.

47.Qd7 instead of the naive h4 is significantly better, and no perpetual in sight, at least for the next 80 moves.

the analysis on the chessbase site is an ante-deluvian one, with Komodo 8 and Fritz.

Here's a deep search using the latest asmFish with 6-man endgame tables. Looks awfully drawish to me, though I haven't even followed the pv yet.

Code: Select all

+0.08 45... Qe3 46. Qxd6 Re8 47. Qd7+ Re7 48. Qc6 Qxe4 49. d6 Qd3+ 50. Kg1 Re8 51. Ra1 h5 52. Qxb5 Rd8 53. Qb7+ Kg8 54. Qe7 Qxd6 55. Qxd6 Rxd6 56. Ra8+ Kf7 57. Rc8 Rd1+ 58. Kh2 Ke7 59. Rxc4 Rf1 60. b5 Rb1 61. Rc7+ Kd6 62. Rxg7 Rxb5 63. Rf7 e4 64. Rxf6+ Ke5 65. Rh6 Rc5 66. f6 Ke6 67. Kg3 Rf5 68. f7+ Kxf7 69. Rb6 e3 70. Rb4 e2 71. Re4 Rc5 72. Rxe2 Rxc3+ 73. Kh2 Kg6 74. h4 Rc4 75. g3 Rb4 76. Re6+ Kg7 77. Re5 Kg6 78. Re2 Rb3 79. Rg2 Kf7 80. Rc2 Kf6 81. Rf2+ Kg6 82. Kg2 Rb6 83. Rd2 Rb3 84. Kf2 Rc3 85. Rb2 Rc6 86. Kg2 Rf6 87. Rb5 Kh6 88. Re5 Kg6 89. Rg5+ Kh6 90. Rc5 Kg6 91. Rc4 Rf5 92. Rb4 (depth 69, 8:52:17)

I don't know, I have so many opponents and so many threads to reply to, that my head already starts swirling.

so, for any input from my side that would be very much off target I guess I am pretty much excused.

the Aronian-Carlsen game starts repeating.

no one coming to the support, and playing a 10-men/engine simul is definitely energy-draining.

I have the feeling I already can not cope with the position, purely physically.

besides, I am not very certain now whether I am currently posting into the Deep Blue - Kasparov thread, or the queen-knights imbalance one.

anyway, white has so many winning lines, what if white deviates with 54.Qf3 instead of Qe7?

[d]3r2k1/6p1/3P1p2/4pP1p/1Pp5/2Pq1Q1P/6P1/R5K1 b - - 0 5