A french defence game

Lyudmil Tsvetkov · Post by **Lyudmil Tsvetkov** » Fri Aug 11, 2017 6:33 am

Werewolf wrote:
Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:f4, though, is no doubt the strongest continuation.

[d]rnbqk2r/pp2nppp/4p3/2ppP3/3P1P2/P1P5/2P3PP/R1BQKBNR b KQkq f3 0 2

if anyone would like to try this one, happily.
Yeah I'll take this on for black. Just give me 24 hours to prep.

In these structures - what is your opinion of the move ...c4 for black? I think Botvinnik didn't like it because although black takes away the d3-h7 diagonal for white he loses counterplay against the centre (except by ...b5 or ...f6)

it will depend on the specific position, but basically you are right, c4 in general is no good for the reasons you mentioned, and straigth above too.

Lyudmil Tsvetkov · Post by **Lyudmil Tsvetkov** » Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:45 am

zullil wrote:
Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:so far, for the f4 line I have:

f4 b6 Bb5 Bd7 Bd3 Ba4 Nf3 a6(to change bishops via b5 with draw) Rb1 Nd7 0-0 c4 Be2 0-0 g4:

[d]r2q1rk1/3nnppp/pp2p3/3pP3/b1pP1PP1/P1P2N2/2P1B2P/1RBQ1RK1 b - g3 0 9

and white has almost won

any suggestions for improvements for black?
[D] rn1qk2r/p3nppp/1p2p3/2ppP3/b2P1P2/P1PB1N2/2P3PP/R1BQK2R b KQkq - 5 10

Well, asmFish is not fond of 10... a6 here. It believes that the three best choices here are c4, Qd7 and Nbc6, all of which leave Black with a tiny edge. Of course, 5 hours of searching to depth 58 might not compensate for asmFish's lack of understanding of chess.
Code: Select all
-0.11 &#91;+&#93; &#91;*&#93; 10... c4 11. Be2 f5 12. Be3 Qd7 13. Ng1 Na6 14. Nh3 O-O-O 15. O-O Nc7 16. Nf2 h6 17. Qd2 Kb7 18. g3 Nc6 19. Rfb1 Rhg8 20. Bh5 Qe7 21. h4 Rc8 22. Bf3 Rgd8 23. Nd1 Na5 24. Nf2 Qe8 25. Kg2 Bb5 26. Qc1 Kb8 27. Nh3 Bc6 28. Ng1 Na6 29. Be2 Ba4 30. Nf3 Kb7 31. Ng1 Nc6 32. Nh3 Nc7 33. Nf2 Na5 34. Bf3 Bc6 35. Qb2 Kb8 36. Qc1 g6 37. Rb4 Nb5 38. Qd2 Nc7 39. Rbb1 &#40;depth 58, 4&#58;48&#58;27&#41;

-0.05 &#91;+&#93; &#91;*&#93; 10... Qd7 11. O-O Nbc6 12. Nh4 c4 13. Be2 Ng6 14. Nxg6 hxg6 15. Be3 O-O-O 16. Rb1 Kb7 17. Bf2 Rh7 18. Qd2 Rdh8 19. h4 Ne7 20. Bf3 Rf8 21. g3 Rhh8 22. Kg2 Nc6 23. Bg4 Rd8 24. Rh1 Ne7 25. Bf3 Qe8 26. Rb4 Kc7 27. Qe2 Kb8 28. Qd2 Bc6 29. Rbb1 Nf5 30. Qc1 Ba4 31. Qd2 Rc8 32. Rb4 Ne7 33. Ra1 Rc7 34. Rh1 Rb7 35. Rbb1 Bc6 36. Be2 Rc7 37. Bf3 Bd7 38. Qc1 Rc8 39. g4 &#40;depth 57, 4&#58;48&#58;27&#41;

-0.05 &#91;+&#93; &#91;*&#93; 10... Nbc6 11. O-O Qc7 12. Nh4 c4 13. Be2 Ng6 14. Nxg6 hxg6 15. Be3 Kf8 16. Rb1 Rd8 17. Bf3 Ne7 18. Qd2 Ke8 19. Bf2 Kd7 20. Rfe1 Kc8 21. g3 Kb7 22. Kg2 Qd7 23. Kg1 Nc6 24. h4 Ne7 25. Rb4 Rc8 26. Reb1 Kb8 27. Kg2 Rc7 28. Rh1 Qe8 29. Rbb1 Nf5 30. Rb4 Bc6 31. Rhb1 Ne7 32. Ra1 Rb7 33. Rbb1 Ba4 34. Rf1 Nf5 35. Rh1 Qe7 36. Bg4 Qd7 37. Rab1 Qe7 38. Qc1 Bc6 39. Re1 &#40;depth 57, 4&#58;48&#58;27&#41;

now, I am not playing this, I hope you understand very well it is completely impossible for me to handle 5 or 6 positions at the same time.

definitely doable for engines, by switching search fens, but not for a mere mortal that gets tired after a while.

it is even more difficult to play, when you input entire lines, deciding when to deviate; if this is a dangerous approach for engines, it is much more so for humans.

I don't know how it is possible for SF to find the only 11...f5, the only move that does not lose immediately, as otherwise white would have played g4, with a positional crush.
I definitely suspect here human interference.

please, be so frank to share what GMs are helping you.

ok, not playing the game, but will just offer you some hints for you to check in analysis mode.

in your line, 13.Ng1 seems completely strange, I would prefer the much stronger Bf2:

[d]rn2k2r/p2qn1pp/1p2p3/3pPp2/b1pP1P2/P1P2N2/2P1BBPP/R2QK2R b KQkq - 0 4

you might want to switch your SF onto this position, who knows, after 10 hours of analysis it might even see black getting mated.

when you think that SF has spent 5 hours on this, and I just 20 minutes...

zullil · Post by **zullil** » Fri Aug 11, 2017 12:36 pm

Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:
zullil wrote:
Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:so far, for the f4 line I have:

f4 b6 Bb5 Bd7 Bd3 Ba4 Nf3 a6(to change bishops via b5 with draw) Rb1 Nd7 0-0 c4 Be2 0-0 g4:

[d]r2q1rk1/3nnppp/pp2p3/3pP3/b1pP1PP1/P1P2N2/2P1B2P/1RBQ1RK1 b - g3 0 9

and white has almost won

any suggestions for improvements for black?
[D] rn1qk2r/p3nppp/1p2p3/2ppP3/b2P1P2/P1PB1N2/2P3PP/R1BQK2R b KQkq - 5 10

Well, asmFish is not fond of 10... a6 here. It believes that the three best choices here are c4, Qd7 and Nbc6, all of which leave Black with a tiny edge.
now, I am not playing this, I hope you understand very well it is completely impossible for me to handle 5 or 6 positions at the same time.

definitely doable for engines, by switching search fens, but not for a mere mortal that gets tired after a while.

it is even more difficult to play, when you input entire lines, deciding when to deviate; if this is a dangerous approach for engines, it is much more so for humans.

I don't know how it is possible for SF to find the only 11...f5, the only move that does not lose immediately, as otherwise white would have played g4, with a positional crush.
I definitely suspect here human interference.
please, be so frank to share what GMs are helping you.

ok, not playing the game, but will just offer you some hints for you to check in analysis mode.
.

Hi Lyudmil. Not intending for you to play a game, or even respond. You gave a line starting with f4, and asked for suggested improvements for Black. After spending some time on your line, asmFish asked me to post its suggestion. The move 10...a6 stood out as the only move in your line that caused it concern. The engine does not consider it one of the three best moves for Black.

AsmFish continued to search after I posted. It still considers 10...c4 best, with Nbc6 and Qd7 as lesser alternatives. One thing I noticed in all three lines (which I won't post) is that asmFish believes Black should castle queenside. The move O-O-O appears in all three lines.

I'll now play your 10...a6 and see what asmFish suggests. Please continue your analysis with Mike. I was simply trying to provide some additional food for thought.

Lyudmil Tsvetkov · Post by **Lyudmil Tsvetkov** » Fri Aug 11, 2017 1:18 pm

zullil wrote:
Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:
zullil wrote:
Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:so far, for the f4 line I have:

f4 b6 Bb5 Bd7 Bd3 Ba4 Nf3 a6(to change bishops via b5 with draw) Rb1 Nd7 0-0 c4 Be2 0-0 g4:

[d]r2q1rk1/3nnppp/pp2p3/3pP3/b1pP1PP1/P1P2N2/2P1B2P/1RBQ1RK1 b - g3 0 9

and white has almost won

any suggestions for improvements for black?
[D] rn1qk2r/p3nppp/1p2p3/2ppP3/b2P1P2/P1PB1N2/2P3PP/R1BQK2R b KQkq - 5 10

Well, asmFish is not fond of 10... a6 here. It believes that the three best choices here are c4, Qd7 and Nbc6, all of which leave Black with a tiny edge.
now, I am not playing this, I hope you understand very well it is completely impossible for me to handle 5 or 6 positions at the same time.

definitely doable for engines, by switching search fens, but not for a mere mortal that gets tired after a while.

it is even more difficult to play, when you input entire lines, deciding when to deviate; if this is a dangerous approach for engines, it is much more so for humans.

I don't know how it is possible for SF to find the only 11...f5, the only move that does not lose immediately, as otherwise white would have played g4, with a positional crush.
I definitely suspect here human interference.
please, be so frank to share what GMs are helping you.

ok, not playing the game, but will just offer you some hints for you to check in analysis mode.
.
Hi Lyudmil. Not intending for you to play a game, or even respond. You gave a line starting with f4, and asked for suggested improvements for Black. After spending some time on your line, asmFish asked me to post its suggestion. The move 10...a6 stood out as the only move in your line that caused it concern. The engine does not consider it one of the three best moves for Black.

AsmFish continued to search after I posted. It still considers 10...c4 best, with Nbc6 and Qd7 as lesser alternatives. One thing I noticed in all three lines (which I won't post) is that asmFish believes Black should castle queenside. The move O-O-O appears in all three lines.

I'll now play your 10...a6 and see what asmFish suggests. Please continue your analysis with Mike. I was simply trying to provide some additional food for thought.

on the contrary, Louis, I am very much eager of your input, please try to provide it after my last posted position, featuring Bf2.

all I stated is, half-jokingly, that it is not very easy for a human to handle several positions simultaneously.

white is winning also after your c4 and my Bf2, just have to play longer.

your output is most interesting of all, so I would be happy to have it, only thing I stated is that will be slower, analysis session, as moving every 20 years or so is really quite burdensome for the human.

whenever you are ready, you can post, and whenever I am ready, I will post.

with Mike, we will analyse separately later.

the position is extremely deep and interesting, so this will be a bonus for us, for the engines, as well as for people reading this.

waiting for SF's reply on Bf2.

Lyudmil Tsvetkov · Post by **Lyudmil Tsvetkov** » Fri Aug 11, 2017 1:48 pm

btw., in my STC tests, white is winning very convincingly that, or at least getting advantage each and every time.

2 games with SF:

[pgn]
[Event "Shootout (Stockfish864POPCNT, Blitz 1m)"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "????.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "New game"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "1-0"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rn2k2r/p2qn1pp/1p2p3/3pPp2/b1pP1P2/P1P2N2/2P1BBPP/R2QK2R b KQkq - 0 4"]
[PlyCount "270"]

4... Nec6 {-0.10/20 1} 5. O-O {0.00/26 1} O-O {0.00/27 2} 6. Ng5 {0.00/26 1
(Bh4)} Na6 {0.00/28 8} 7. Nh3 {0.07/25 3 (Bh5)} Qe7 {0.07/25 2} 8. Bg3 {0.04/
22 1 (Qd2)} Na5 {0.00/24 1} 9. Nf2 {0.01/25 1 (Qd2)} h6 {0.00/27 1} 10. Qd2 {
0.00/27 4 (Bf3)} Be8 {0.00/28 2} 11. h3 {0.00/26 4 (Nd1)} Nb8 {0.07/26 6} 12.
Nd1 {0.12/24 2} Nbc6 {0.11/24 3} 13. Qe1 {0.00/23 2} Bg6 {0.06/23 5 (Kh8)} 14.
Ne3 {0.06/24 2} Qe8 {0.06/25 1 (Qf7)} 15. Qd1 {0.06/26 1} Ne7 {0.06/26 3 (Qe7)}
16. h4 {0.00/22 1} Qb5 {0.08/23 2 (Qc8)} 17. h5 {0.30/20 0} Bh7 {0.02/21 2
(Be8)} 18. a4 {0.12/23 1 (Bh4)} Qd7 {0.05/23 1} 19. Qc1 {0.04/23 1 (Bh4)} Kh8 {
0.04/25 2} 20. Bh4 {0.04/25 2} Rf7 {0.19/25 3} 21. Bf3 {0.27/19 0} Bg8 {0.33/
20 1} 22. Be1 {0.53/20 2} Rff8 {0.58/19 1} 23. Bd2 {0.54/19 1} Bh7 {0.66/20 1
(Rfe8)} 24. Qe1 {0.68/21 1} Rg8 {0.68/22 1 (Rae8)} 25. Qh4 {0.68/22 1} Rac8 {
0.66/21 1 (Nb7)} 26. Bc1 {0.70/21 1} Rgd8 {0.72/21 1 (Rgf8)} 27. Ba3 {0.70/21 0
} Re8 {0.60/19 0} 28. Bxe7 {0.67/20 0 (g3)} Rxe7 {1.00/22 2} 29. g4 {1.05/20 0}
Nc6 {1.04/20 1} 30. gxf5 {1.07/20 1} Bxf5 {1.20/20 0} 31. Nxf5 {1.22/21 1} exf5
{1.31/21 0} 32. Qh1 {1.22/21 0} Rd8 {1.26/20 0} 33. Rfb1 {1.27/21 1} Re6 {0.88/
21 1} 34. Kf2 {0.91/22 1} Ne7 {0.92/20 0} 35. Rg1 {0.91/21 1} Rg8 {0.90/22 1}
36. Rg3 {0.94/22 1} Rc6 {0.97/21 1} 37. Ke3 {0.96/21 0} Rcc8 {1.06/19 0} 38.
Kd2 {1.02/19 1} Rb8 {1.22/17 0} 39. Qc1 {1.28/19 1 (Rag1)} Rgc8 {1.35/16 0} 40.
Qb2 {1.31/18 1} Rc6 {1.50/18 0 (Qb7)} 41. Qb5 {1.43/18 0} Ra8 {1.66/17 0} 42.
Qa6 {1.28/19 1} Qc8 {1.18/19 0} 43. Qxc8+ {1.13/25 0} Raxc8 {1.13/27 0} 44.
Rag1 {1.13/29 0} Rg8 {1.13/30 0} 45. Ke3 {1.13/31 1} a6 {1.13/31 0} 46. R3g2 {
1.13/31 0} Kh7 {1.13/30 0} 47. Ra1 {1.13/28 0 (Ke2)} Re6 {1.13/28 0} 48. Kf2 {
1.13/28 0 (Rg3)} Rc6 {1.13/26 0} 49. Rgg1 {1.13/26 0 (Rb1)} Re6 {1.13/24 0} 50.
Rg3 {1.13/29 0 (Ke3)} Rc6 {1.13/28 0} 51. Rag1 {1.13/29 0} Kh8 {1.13/24 0} 52.
Ke3 {1.13/29 0 (Rb1)} Re6 {1.13/28 0} 53. Ra1 {1.13/28 0 (R3g2)} Kh7 {1.13/26 0
} 54. Rg2 {1.13/30 0 (Rb1)} Rc6 {1.13/26 0} 55. Rag1 {1.13/26 0 (Rb1)} Kh8 {1.
13/26 0} 56. Rb1 {1.13/30 0 (Ke2)} Re6 {1.13/28 0} 57. Ke2 {1.13/28 0 (Rgg1)}
Kh7 {1.13/25 0} 58. Rgg1 {1.13/27 0 (Rg3)} Rc6 {1.13/26 0} 59. Rg3 {1.13/29 0
(Kf2)} Re6 {1.13/26 0} 60. Ke3 {1.13/28 0 (Kf2)} Kh8 {1.13/26 0} 61. Kf2 {1.13/
30 0 (Rgg1)} Rc6 {1.13/25 0} 62. Rbg1 {1.13/28 0 (Rg2)} Kh7 {1.13/25 0} 63.
R3g2 {1.13/30 0 (Ra1)} Re6 {1.13/24 0} 64. Ke2 {1.13/30 0} Rc6 {1.13/25 0 (Kh8)
} 65. Rg3 {1.13/29 0} Re6 {1.13/24 0} 66. Rb1 {1.13/29 0} Rc6 {1.13/20 0} 67.
Ke3 {1.13/29 0 (Ra1)} Re6 {1.13/27 0} 68. Kf2 {1.13/28 0 (Kd2)} Rc6 {1.13/27 0}
69. Rgg1 {1.13/28 0} Re6 {1.13/23 0} 70. Rg2 {1.13/28 0 (Rbe1)} Rc6 {1.13/27 0}
71. Ke3 {1.13/30 0 (Re1)} Re6 {1.13/26 0} 72. Kd2 {1.13/27 0 (Ke2)} Rc6 {1.13/
24 0} 73. Rbg1 {1.13/25 0 (Rgg1)} Re6 {1.13/24 0} 74. Ra1 {1.13/27 0 (Re1)} Rc6
{1.13/27 0} 75. Rg3 {1.13/28 0 (Rgg1)} Re6 {1.13/25 0} 76. Rag1 {1.13/28 0
(Rgg1)} Rc6 {1.13/25 0} 77. Rb1 {1.13/28 0} Re6 {1.13/27 0} 78. Ra1 {1.13/28 0
(Rgg1)} Rc6 {1.13/26 0} 79. Ke2 {1.13/29 0 (Rag1)} Re6 {1.13/27 0} 80. Rgg1 {
1.13/27 0 (Ke3)} Rb8 {1.13/22 0 (Rc6)} 81. Rg2 {1.13/27 0} Rc6 {1.13/26 0} 82.
Rb1 {1.13/28 0} Rg8 {1.13/25 0} 83. Kd2 {1.13/30 0} Re6 {1.13/26 0} 84. Rbg1 {
1.13/30 0} Rc6 {1.13/26 0} 85. Rg3 {1.13/29 0} Re6 {1.13/24 0} 86. Rb1 {1.13/
27 0} Rc6 {1.13/22 0} 87. Rgg1 {1.13/21 0 (Rf1)} Re6 {1.13/19 0} 88. Rbe1 {1.
13/22 0} Rc6 {1.13/21 0} 89. Rg2 {1.13/24 0 (Ke2)} Re6 {1.13/21 0} 90. a5 {1.
13/22 0 (Ke3)} b5 {1.13/21 0} 91. Reg1 {1.13/26 0} Rc6 {1.13/24 0} 92. Rg3 {1.
13/26 0 (Ke3)} Kh8 {1.13/19 0 (Re6)} 93. Ke3 {1.13/26 0} Kh7 {1.13/23 0} 94.
Kf2 {1.12/24 0 (R3g2)} Kh8 {1.12/21 0} 95. R3g2 {1.12/26 0 (Ke2)} Kh7 {1.12/23
0} 96. Rh1 {1.12/24 0 (Ke3)} Re6 {1.12/17 0 (Rcc8)} 97. Rg3 {1.12/25 0} Rc6 {
1.12/20 0} 98. Rgg1 {1.12/20 0 (Ke3)} Rb8 {1.12/20 0} 99. Rg2 {1.12/23 0} Rg8 {
1.12/18 0 (Ra8)} 100. Rg3 {1.12/24 0} Re6 {1.12/23 0} 101. Rhg1 {1.12/25 0
(Ke3)} Rc6 {1.12/23 0} 102. Rh3 {1.12/26 0 (Re1)} Re6 {1.12/23 0} 103. Ke3 {1.
12/26 0} Rc6 {1.12/25 0} 104. Rhg3 {1.12/26 0 (Rhh1)} Kh8 {1.12/24 0} 105. R3g2
{1.12/23 0 (Re1)} Kh7 {1.12/23 0} 106. Rh1 {1.12/24 0 (Kf2)} Rb8 {1.12/20 0}
107. Rg3 {1.12/23 0} Rg8 {1.12/23 0} 108. Rgg1 {1.12/23 0 (Kd2)} Rh8 {1.12/22 0
} 109. Rh2 {1.12/25 0} Ra8 {1.12/24 0} 110. Rg3 {1.12/25 0} Rb8 {1.12/24 0}
111. Rhg2 {1.12/24 0} Rg8 {1.12/23 0} 112. Kd2 {1.12/26 0} Kh8 {1.12/24 0} 113.
Rg1 {1.12/25 0} Kh7 {1.12/22 0} 114. R3g2 {1.12/24 0 (Ke2)} Kh8 {1.12/24 0}
115. Ke2 {1.12/26 0 (Rh1)} Kh7 {1.12/22 0} 116. Ke3 {1.12/25 0} Kh8 {1.12/23 0}
117. Rh1 {1.12/24 0 (Rh2)} Kh7 {1.12/23 0} 118. Rg3 {1.12/25 0 (Kd2)} Re6 {1.
12/18 0 (Kh8)} 119. Rgg1 {1.12/21 0} Rc6 {1.12/21 0} 120. Kd2 {1.12/23 0} Kh8 {
1.12/21 0} 121. Rh3 {1.12/23 0 (Rg3)} Kh7 {1.12/22 0} 122. Rh2 {1.12/24 0} Rb8
{1.12/18 0 (Kh8)} 123. Ke2 {1.12/22 0} Rg8 {1.12/20 0} 124. Rhg2 {1.12/24 0}
Kh8 {1.12/23 0} 125. Rh1 {1.12/24 0} Re6 {1.12/23 0} 126. Kd2 {1.12/24 0} Rc6 {
1.12/23 0} 127. Rgg1 {1.12/23 0 (Rg3)} Kh7 {1.12/23 0} 128. Rg3 {1.12/24 0} Re6
{1.12/23 0} 129. Rg2 {1.12/23 0} Rb8 {1.12/14 0 (Kh8)} 130. Ke2 {1.12/21 0} Rc6
{1.12/15 0 (Rg8)} 131. Re1 {1.12/20 0} Re6 {1.12/17 0 (Rg8)} 132. Kf2 {1.12/17
0 (Ke3)} Rg8 {1.12/14 0} 133. Ra1 {1.12/18 0 (Rh2)} Rc6 {1.08/17 0} 134. Rag1 {
1.08/17 0} Re6 {1.12/16 0 (Kh8)} 135. Rb1 {1.02/14 0 (Re1)} Rc6 {1.12/15 0}
136. Rg3 {1.02/11 0} Kh8 {1.03/12 0} 137. Ke3 {0.95/12 0 (Rh3)} Kh7 {1.03/14 0}
138. Re1 {1.05/14 0} Re6 {0.95/15 0} 139. Kf2 {0.60/15 0 Time} 1-0

[Event "Shootout (Stockfish864POPCNT, Blitz 1m)"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "????.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "New game"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "1-0"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rn2k2r/p2qn1pp/1p2p3/3pPp2/b1pP1P2/P1P2N2/2P1BBPP/R2QK2R b KQkq - 0 4"]
[PlyCount "124"]

4... Nec6 {-0.10/20 1} 5. O-O {0.00/26 2} O-O {0.00/27 2} 6. Ng5 {0.00/26 1
(Bh4)} Na6 {0.00/28 8} 7. Bh5 {0.07/23 1} Qc8 {0.13/22 2 (Na5)} 8. Bh4 {0.07/
22 1} Na5 {0.07/23 1} 9. Nh3 {0.15/24 1} Be8 {0.27/24 4 (Qc7)} 10. Be7 {0.74/
23 1} Bxh5 {1.03/24 2} 11. Qxh5 {0.93/23 2} Rf7 {1.09/25 1} 12. Qh4 {1.03/24 1}
Nc6 {0.95/25 1} 13. Ng5 {1.21/24 1} Nxe7 {1.09/25 1} 14. Qxh7+ {1.09/25 1} Kf8
{1.09/1 0} 15. Rf3 {1.16/25 2} Ke8 {1.21/25 1} 16. Qh8+ {1.23/24 1} Rf8 {1.18/
27 2} 17. Qxg7 {1.16/26 1} Kd7 {1.27/27 1} 18. Nh7 {1.22/26 1} Qd8 {1.18/26 1}
19. Rh3 {1.11/27 2} Nc7 {1.07/28 3 (Kc7)} 20. a4 {1.29/26 1} Kc6 {1.33/27 1}
21. Qxf8 {1.27/26 1 (Nxf8)} Qxf8 {1.34/26 1} 22. Nxf8 {1.19/25 1} Rxf8 {1.39/
24 2} 23. Rh7 {1.34/24 1 (Kf2)} Ng6 {1.22/25 1} 24. g3 {1.34/26 3} Rg8 {1.42/
23 1} 25. Kf2 {1.39/24 1} a5 {1.36/23 2} 26. Kf3 {1.33/23 1} b5 {1.33/27 1} 27.
axb5+ {1.40/28 3} Kb6 {1.40/29 4} 28. h3 {1.52/21 1 (Rxc7)} Nxb5 {1.68/20 1}
29. g4 {1.83/20 1} fxg4+ {1.84/20 1 (Nxc3)} 30. hxg4 {1.55/22 3} Nxc3 {1.56/19
1} 31. f5 {1.87/20 1} Nb5 {1.89/21 1 (Nf8)} 32. Ke3 {1.90/20 1} Nxe5 {1.83/20 1
} 33. dxe5 {1.77/21 1} Rxg4 {1.69/21 1} 34. fxe6 {1.75/22 1} Re4+ {1.84/21 1}
35. Kd2 {1.91/22 0} Rxe5 {1.78/21 1} 36. e7 {1.80/22 0} Nd6 {1.83/23 1} 37. Rh6
{1.92/21 0} Kc5 {2.04/21 1} 38. Rxa5+ {1.77/21 1} Kb4 {1.69/21 1} 39. Ra7 {1.
58/22 1} c3+ {1.64/22 1} 40. Kd3 {1.83/24 1} Nf5 {1.86/22 0} 41. Rb7+ {1.93/21
0} Kc5 {2.04/21 0} 42. Rc7+ {2.09/22 1} Kb5 {2.08/23 1} 43. Rh3 {1.98/21 1} Re1
{2.13/21 1} 44. e8=Q+ {2.12/21 0 (e8B+)} Rxe8 {2.10/21 0} 45. Rf3 {2.12/22 0}
Re5 {2.15/19 0} 46. Kxc3 {1.95/21 1} Ne7 {1.89/17 0} 47. Rf6 {1.97/21 0} Nf5 {
2.10/17 0} 48. Rf8 {2.15/18 1} Kb6 {2.16/18 0} 49. Rh7 {2.22/18 0} d4+ {2.16/
18 0} 50. Kd3 {2.20/21 2} Re3+ {2.23/18 0} 51. Kd2 {2.35/18 0} Ng3 {2.35/18 0}
52. Rd7 {2.35/17 0} Ne4+ {2.37/15 0} 53. Kc1 {2.35/18 0} Ng3 {2.32/16 0 (Nc5)}
54. Rb8+ {2.41/15 0} Kc6 {2.39/14 0} 55. Rxd4 {2.43/15 0} Re6 {2.43/13 0} 56.
Kd2 {2.41/16 1} Ne4+ {2.41/10 0} 57. Kd3 {2.48/15 0} Nc5+ {2.47/12 0} 58. Kc3 {
2.58/15 0} Ne4+ {2.58/12 0} 59. Kb4 {2.68/16 0} Kc7 {2.55/14 0} 60. Rb5 {2.67/
15 0} Re8 {2.68/13 0} 61. c4 {2.86/15 0 (Rh5)} Kc6 {2.88/14 0} 62. Rdd5 {2.96/
15 0} Kc7 {2.94/13 0 (Rf8)} 63. Re5 {3.43/15 0 (Rh5)} Rxe5 {3.51/14 0} 64. Rxe5
{4.32/18 0} Nf2 {4.43/15 0} 65. Re2 {7.68/18 0} Nh1 {7.83/16 0} 66. Kb5 {8.17/
20 0} 1-0

[/pgn]

zullil · Post by **zullil** » Fri Aug 11, 2017 3:08 pm

Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:
on the contrary, Louis, I am very much eager of your input, please try to provide it after my last posted position, featuring Bf2.

all I stated is, half-jokingly, that it is not very easy for a human to handle several positions simultaneously.

white is winning also after your c4 and my Bf2, just have to play longer.

your output is most interesting of all, so I would be happy to have it, only thing I stated is that will be slower, analysis session, as moving every 20 years or so is really quite burdensome for the human.

whenever you are ready, you can post, and whenever I am ready, I will post.

with Mike, we will analyse separately later.

the position is extremely deep and interesting, so this will be a bonus for us, for the engines, as well as for people reading this.

waiting for SF's reply on Bf2.

Won't be able to do much today. But I did ask the latest Komodo about your 10...a6. Komodo also prefers the same three moves as asmFIsh, although it scores all at 0.00.

For your information only, here's the output:

Code: Select all

0.00 10... Nbc6 11. O-O Qd7 12. Rb1 c4 13. Be2 O-O 14. g3 f6 15. Re1 Nf5 16. Bf1 Rae8 17. Qd2 Qf7 18. Qe2 fxe5 19. dxe5 Qg6 20. Bh3 h6 21. Qd2 Nfe7 22. Nh4 Qf7 23. Bg2 Nf5 24. Nf3 Qg6 25. Bh3 &#40;depth 40, 1&#58;51&#58;01&#41;

0.00 10... Qd7 11. O-O Nbc6 12. Rb1 c4 13. Be2 O-O 14. g3 f6 15. Re1 Nf5 16. Bf1 Rae8 17. Qd2 Qf7 18. Qe2 fxe5 19. dxe5 Qg6 20. Bh3 h6 21. Qd2 Nfe7 22. Nh4 Qf7 23. Bg2 Nf5 24. Nf3 Qg6 25. Bh3 &#40;depth 40, 1&#58;51&#58;01&#41;

0.00 10... c4 11. Be2 Qd7 12. O-O Nbc6 13. g3 Rd8 14. Be3 O-O 15. Bf2 f6 16. Re1 fxe5 17. dxe5 Nb8 18. Ng5 Na6 19. Bg4 Nf5 20. Qe2 Rc8 21. Bh3 Nc5 22. Bxc5 bxc5 23. Rab1 h6 24. Nf3 Qf7 25. Qf2 Rce8 26. Qg2 Rc8 27. Qf2 &#40;depth 40, 1&#58;51&#58;01&#41;

Actually, the three lines might just be transpositions of one another...

Lyudmil Tsvetkov · Post by **Lyudmil Tsvetkov** » Fri Aug 11, 2017 4:05 pm

zullil wrote:
Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:
on the contrary, Louis, I am very much eager of your input, please try to provide it after my last posted position, featuring Bf2.

all I stated is, half-jokingly, that it is not very easy for a human to handle several positions simultaneously.

white is winning also after your c4 and my Bf2, just have to play longer.

your output is most interesting of all, so I would be happy to have it, only thing I stated is that will be slower, analysis session, as moving every 20 years or so is really quite burdensome for the human.

whenever you are ready, you can post, and whenever I am ready, I will post.

with Mike, we will analyse separately later.

the position is extremely deep and interesting, so this will be a bonus for us, for the engines, as well as for people reading this.

waiting for SF's reply on Bf2.
Won't be able to do much today. But I did ask the latest Komodo about your 10...a6. Komodo also prefers the same three moves as asmFIsh, although it scores all at 0.00.

For your information only, here's the output:
Code: Select all
0.00 10... Nbc6 11. O-O Qd7 12. Rb1 c4 13. Be2 O-O 14. g3 f6 15. Re1 Nf5 16. Bf1 Rae8 17. Qd2 Qf7 18. Qe2 fxe5 19. dxe5 Qg6 20. Bh3 h6 21. Qd2 Nfe7 22. Nh4 Qf7 23. Bg2 Nf5 24. Nf3 Qg6 25. Bh3 &#40;depth 40, 1&#58;51&#58;01&#41;

0.00 10... Qd7 11. O-O Nbc6 12. Rb1 c4 13. Be2 O-O 14. g3 f6 15. Re1 Nf5 16. Bf1 Rae8 17. Qd2 Qf7 18. Qe2 fxe5 19. dxe5 Qg6 20. Bh3 h6 21. Qd2 Nfe7 22. Nh4 Qf7 23. Bg2 Nf5 24. Nf3 Qg6 25. Bh3 &#40;depth 40, 1&#58;51&#58;01&#41;

0.00 10... c4 11. Be2 Qd7 12. O-O Nbc6 13. g3 Rd8 14. Be3 O-O 15. Bf2 f6 16. Re1 fxe5 17. dxe5 Nb8 18. Ng5 Na6 19. Bg4 Nf5 20. Qe2 Rc8 21. Bh3 Nc5 22. Bxc5 bxc5 23. Rab1 h6 24. Nf3 Qf7 25. Qf2 Rce8 26. Qg2 Rc8 27. Qf2 &#40;depth 40, 1&#58;51&#58;01&#41;
Actually, the three lines might just be transpositions of one another...

I already know this.

what about continuation to my Bf2 line, I also posted a diagram?

zullil · Post by **zullil** » Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:29 pm

Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:
what about continuation to my Bf2 line, I also posted a diagram?

[D] rn2k2r/p2qn1pp/1p2p3/3pPp2/b1pP1P2/P1P2N2/2P1BBPP/R2QK2R b KQkq - 3 13
AsmFish says Black has equalized. Here are the three best replies. Note that Black intends to put its king on the queenside.

Code: Select all

-0.20 13... Nbc6 14. O-O O-O-O 15. Qd2 h6 16. Rab1 Kb7 17. Be3 Ng6 18. Qc1 Rhg8 19. Rb2 Nh8 20. Rb1 Nf7 21. Re1 Rc8 22. h4 Qe7 23. Rb2 Kb8 24. Rb1 Nh8 25. Qb2 Kb7 26. Rf1 Nf7 27. Qc1 Rcf8 28. Bd2 Qd7 29. Be3 Rd8 30. Qd2 Nh8 31. Qc1 Ng6 32. Bf2 Rc8 33. g3 Nge7 34. Qb2 Kb8 35. Rfe1 Nd8 36. Kg2 Nb7 37. Rf1 Rgd8 38. Be3 Nc6 39. Qc1 Rg8 40. Nd2 Qf7 &#40;depth 54, 1&#58;05&#58;51&#41;

-0.20 13... Ng6 14. Qd2 Kd8 15. O-O Nc6 16. h3 Kc7 17. Qc1 h6 18. Rb1 Kb7 19. Kh2 Rhg8 20. Rb2 Rac8 21. Re1 Qe7 22. Rb1 Rcd8 23. Kg1 Nh8 24. h4 Qd7 25. Qb2 Ng6 26. g3 Rc8 27. Bf1 Kb8 28. Bg2 Nge7 29. Rf1 Rgd8 30. Be3 Qe8 31. Bf2 Kb7 32. Ra1 Qd7 33. Qc1 Rg8 34. Qb2 Ng6 35. Rfe1 Ka8 36. Reb1 Nge7 37. Rf1 Kb7 38. Rab1 Rgd8 39. Nd2 Kb8 &#40;depth 53, 1&#58;05&#58;51&#41;

-0.20 13... Na6 14. O-O O-O-O 15. Be3 Nb8 16. Ng5 Nec6 17. g3 h6 18. Nf3 Rhg8 19. Qd2 Qe7 20. h4 Nd7 21. Nh2 Nf8 22. Rfb1 Nh7 23. Nf3 Kb7 24. Qc1 Nf8 25. Qb2 Rc8 26. Kg2 Qd7 27. Qc1 Ng6 28. Qb2 Nge7 29. Rf1 Kb8 30. Ng1 Na5 31. Nf3 Kb7 32. Rab1 Ka8 33. Rh1 Qe8 34. Ra1 Nec6 35. Rab1 Kb7 36. Qc1 Qd7 37. Qb2 Ka8 38. Rhf1 Qe7 39. Ra1 Kb7 40. Rfb1 &#40;depth 53, 1&#58;05&#58;51&#41;

Lyudmil Tsvetkov · Post by **Lyudmil Tsvetkov** » Fri Aug 11, 2017 6:42 pm

zullil wrote:

Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:
what about continuation to my Bf2 line, I also posted a diagram?

[D] rn2k2r/p2qn1pp/1p2p3/3pPp2/b1pP1P2/P1P2N2/2P1BBPP/R2QK2R b KQkq - 3 13
AsmFish says Black has equalized. Here are the three best replies. Note that Black intends to put its king on the queenside.

Code: Select all

-0.20 13... Nbc6 14. O-O O-O-O 15. Qd2 h6 16. Rab1 Kb7 17. Be3 Ng6 18. Qc1 Rhg8 19. Rb2 Nh8 20. Rb1 Nf7 21. Re1 Rc8 22. h4 Qe7 23. Rb2 Kb8 24. Rb1 Nh8 25. Qb2 Kb7 26. Rf1 Nf7 27. Qc1 Rcf8 28. Bd2 Qd7 29. Be3 Rd8 30. Qd2 Nh8 31. Qc1 Ng6 32. Bf2 Rc8 33. g3 Nge7 34. Qb2 Kb8 35. Rfe1 Nd8 36. Kg2 Nb7 37. Rf1 Rgd8 38. Be3 Nc6 39. Qc1 Rg8 40. Nd2 Qf7 &#40;depth 54, 1&#58;05&#58;51&#41;

-0.20 13... Ng6 14. Qd2 Kd8 15. O-O Nc6 16. h3 Kc7 17. Qc1 h6 18. Rb1 Kb7 19. Kh2 Rhg8 20. Rb2 Rac8 21. Re1 Qe7 22. Rb1 Rcd8 23. Kg1 Nh8 24. h4 Qd7 25. Qb2 Ng6 26. g3 Rc8 27. Bf1 Kb8 28. Bg2 Nge7 29. Rf1 Rgd8 30. Be3 Qe8 31. Bf2 Kb7 32. Ra1 Qd7 33. Qc1 Rg8 34. Qb2 Ng6 35. Rfe1 Ka8 36. Reb1 Nge7 37. Rf1 Kb7 38. Rab1 Rgd8 39. Nd2 Kb8 &#40;depth 53, 1&#58;05&#58;51&#41;

-0.20 13... Na6 14. O-O O-O-O 15. Be3 Nb8 16. Ng5 Nec6 17. g3 h6 18. Nf3 Rhg8 19. Qd2 Qe7 20. h4 Nd7 21. Nh2 Nf8 22. Rfb1 Nh7 23. Nf3 Kb7 24. Qc1 Nf8 25. Qb2 Rc8 26. Kg2 Qd7 27. Qc1 Ng6 28. Qb2 Nge7 29. Rf1 Kb8 30. Ng1 Na5 31. Nf3 Kb7 32. Rab1 Ka8 33. Rh1 Qe8 34. Ra1 Nec6 35. Rab1 Kb7 36. Qc1 Qd7 37. Qb2 Ka8 38. Rhf1 Qe7 39. Ra1 Kb7 40. Rfb1 &#40;depth 53, 1&#58;05&#58;51&#41;

which of those lines shall I take?
they are all equal.

I suppose the first one.

I deviate with 16.Be3 instead of Rb1:

[d]2kr3r/p2qn1p1/1pn1p2p/3pPp2/b1pP1P2/P1P1BN2/2PQB1PP/R4RK1 b - - 0 4

white has large advantage.

Sf still finds surprisingly good moves, probably because of the VLTC.

even if I am not able to go to positive white score and win, that will still be consistent with my earlier declarations, that the position is winning for white, or at least, with best play, black might be able to save itself in a very narrow margin of lines, maybe some 10% or so.

I recommended Botvinnik's castling long, and indeed, SF is doing precisely that.
f5 was also an outstanding move.

I am really surprised how is SF able to see this; it is not able to do so on my machine.

also, I am very surprised you return a score that favours black, while on my computer I see the same score favouring white...

anyway, I have played and replayed this thousands of times, I know for certain white is winning most of the lines, today just confirmed this one more time in analysis.

the point was to demonstrate to the reading public the Winaver is indeed bad for black, but when one is out of luck, everything happens the other way round...

anyway, that does not concern me at all, the worst thing that could happen is that reading public will remain in the dark ages, believing black holds, I myself am suffciently enlightened to know how things stand.

MikeGL · Post by **MikeGL** » Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:01 pm

Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:
zullil wrote:
Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:
what about continuation to my Bf2 line, I also posted a diagram?
[D] rn2k2r/p2qn1pp/1p2p3/3pPp2/b1pP1P2/P1P2N2/2P1BBPP/R2QK2R b KQkq - 3 13
AsmFish says Black has equalized. Here are the three best replies. Note that Black intends to put its king on the queenside.
Code: Select all
-0.20 13... Nbc6 14. O-O O-O-O 15. Qd2 h6 16. Rab1 Kb7 17. Be3 Ng6 18. Qc1 Rhg8 19. Rb2 Nh8 20. Rb1 Nf7 21. Re1 Rc8 22. h4 Qe7 23. Rb2 Kb8 24. Rb1 Nh8 25. Qb2 Kb7 26. Rf1 Nf7 27. Qc1 Rcf8 28. Bd2 Qd7 29. Be3 Rd8 30. Qd2 Nh8 31. Qc1 Ng6 32. Bf2 Rc8 33. g3 Nge7 34. Qb2 Kb8 35. Rfe1 Nd8 36. Kg2 Nb7 37. Rf1 Rgd8 38. Be3 Nc6 39. Qc1 Rg8 40. Nd2 Qf7 &#40;depth 54, 1&#58;05&#58;51&#41;

-0.20 13... Ng6 14. Qd2 Kd8 15. O-O Nc6 16. h3 Kc7 17. Qc1 h6 18. Rb1 Kb7 19. Kh2 Rhg8 20. Rb2 Rac8 21. Re1 Qe7 22. Rb1 Rcd8 23. Kg1 Nh8 24. h4 Qd7 25. Qb2 Ng6 26. g3 Rc8 27. Bf1 Kb8 28. Bg2 Nge7 29. Rf1 Rgd8 30. Be3 Qe8 31. Bf2 Kb7 32. Ra1 Qd7 33. Qc1 Rg8 34. Qb2 Ng6 35. Rfe1 Ka8 36. Reb1 Nge7 37. Rf1 Kb7 38. Rab1 Rgd8 39. Nd2 Kb8 &#40;depth 53, 1&#58;05&#58;51&#41;

-0.20 13... Na6 14. O-O O-O-O 15. Be3 Nb8 16. Ng5 Nec6 17. g3 h6 18. Nf3 Rhg8 19. Qd2 Qe7 20. h4 Nd7 21. Nh2 Nf8 22. Rfb1 Nh7 23. Nf3 Kb7 24. Qc1 Nf8 25. Qb2 Rc8 26. Kg2 Qd7 27. Qc1 Ng6 28. Qb2 Nge7 29. Rf1 Kb8 30. Ng1 Na5 31. Nf3 Kb7 32. Rab1 Ka8 33. Rh1 Qe8 34. Ra1 Nec6 35. Rab1 Kb7 36. Qc1 Qd7 37. Qb2 Ka8 38. Rhf1 Qe7 39. Ra1 Kb7 40. Rfb1 &#40;depth 53, 1&#58;05&#58;51&#41;
[d]2kr3r/p2qn1p1/1pn1p2p/3pPp2/b1pP1P2/P1P1BN2/2PQB1PP/R4RK1 b - - 0 4

white has large advantage.
Be serious Lyudmil, this is just equal. I even like black a little bit, easier to play as black here.
Just look at the Q-side all pawns are already fixed for white, and black has the dynamics on this position specifically the option to break the K-side and attack castled K of white. White K is a sitting duck preparing to get attack after the K-side break of black, and white cannot do anything at q-side as it is already fixed and Ba4 of black is untouchable on that square while it holds the Qd2 because c2 is permanently under attack by Ba4.

While black is sitting comfortably at q-side.
So black has a little edge on this position in my opinion.

.

A french defence game

Re: A french defence game

Re: A french defence game

Re: A french defence game

Re: A french defence game

Re: A french defence game

Re: A french defence game

Re: A french defence game

Re: A french defence game

Re: A french defence game

Re: A french defence game