Shocking misevaluation by SF

[Spliffjiffer]

hi Eelco
i think the main problem for SF here is the possibility for white to get into this r+n vs r endgame where the score stucks to a flat-line....otherwise SF's score would probably climb because i thing all attempts to decline that endgame end up loosing quickly (but i could err here)...
if it were possible to "tell" SF that all r+n vs r engames on this world are lost for the weaker side ...i would say SF's score should climb quite quickly !?...but i have to admit that the variations after 8. ne4 ? ( where 8.nb3!! is best and we get the r+n vs r endgame) were not quickly solved by SF but the engine was a huge help there to figure out that 8.ne4? and all other alternatives will loose for sure
...so im pretty convinced that 1...ne6 is winning but who knows for sure

regards Peer

[Spliffjiffer]

to avoid this r+n vs r ending i see only the possibility to play a fast ra5 and kf3 for white but this is also loosing as far as i can tell...
for example:
[d]8/4k3/R4pp1/6np/7P/p4NP1/5PK1/r7 b - - 0 58

1. ... Ne6 2. Nd2 Nc5 3. Ra7+ Ke6 4. Ra5 a2 5. Kf3 g5 6. hxg5 fxg5
7. Kg2 g4 8. f4 Kd7 -+

[d]8/3k4/8/R1n4p/5Pp1/6P1/p2N2K1/r7 w - - 1 66
white is lost

[Spliffjiffer]

this g5,g4 idea is so straight and seems so strong that i think i found the easiest way to proof that the original position i posted is winning for black
i give this as mainline and i think there is no way to improve whites play significantly, although i hope you guys with "your" engines will find sth to think about

[d]8/4k3/R4pp1/6np/7P/p4NP1/5PK1/r7 b - - 0 58

58. ... Ne6 59. Nd2 Nc5 60. Ra5 a2 61. Ra3 Kd7 62. Ra5 Ke6 63. Ra3 g5 64.
hxg5 fxg5 65. Nf3 Kd5 66. Nd2 g4 67. Nf1 Ke5 68. Nd2
Ke6 69. f4 Kd7 -+

61...g5 should also win but i wanted to stay in "known waters"

maybe so with strong hardware can confirm this, this would end the discussion finally

[Spliffjiffer]

omg...dear chessfriends, i feel so sorry
after another deep insight i come to the conclusion that the initial position i postet is probably still only a draw...i found this improvement for white:
[d]8/4k3/R4pp1/6np/7P/p4NP1/5PK1/r7 b - - 0 58

58. ... Ne6 59. Nd2 (only move !?)Nc5 (59...a2 should not be better)60. Ra7+ (only move!)Ke6 61. Nc4 (only move!)a2 62. Ne3 (only move!)Nd3 63. Ra6+ (only move!)Ke5
(63. .. Kd7 64. Nd5 Ne1+ 65. Kf1 f5 66. Ke2 Nd3 67. Ra7+ Ke6 68. Nf4+(only move!, kxd3 looses) Nxf4+ 69. gxf4 =) 64. f4+ (only move!)Ke4 65. Nc2 Rd1 (65. .. Rc1 66. Ra4+ Nb4 67. Rxb4+ Kd3
68. Na1 Rxa1 69. Ra4 =) 66. Rxa2 Rd2+ 67. Kg1 Nc1 68. Ra4+ Kf3 69. Ra3+ Kg4
70. Ne3+ Kh3 71. f5 Ne2+ 72. Kf1 Nxg3+ 73. Ke1 Re2+ 74. Kd1 gxf5 75. Nxf5
Rg2 76. Rb3 Rg1+ 77. Kd2 Kg4 78. Nxg3 Rxg3 79. Rb4+ Kf5 80. Rb5+ Kg6 81.
Ke2 Rg4 82. Kf3 Rxh4 =

im so sad about this but by analysing this i learned at least something...there is almost everytime a deeper analysis possible ...and it was fun !
my apologizes

regards, Peer