A french defence game

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

Rhg2:

[d]4q3/1k1bn1n1/1pr1p1pr/p2pPp2/P1pP1P1P/2P1KB2/QNP2BR1/6R1 b - - 0 1

next move in an hour or so, so take a closer look.

-0.44 50... Nh5
[D] 4q3/1k1bn3/1pr1p1pr/p2pPp1n/P1pP1P1P/2P1KB2/QNP2BR1/6R1 w - - 12 51

Ra1:

[d]4q3/1k1bn3/1pr1p1pr/p2pPp1n/P1pP1P1P/2P1KB2/QNP2BR1/R7 b - - 0 1

[zullil]

Ra1:

[d]4q3/1k1bn3/1pr1p1pr/p2pPp1n/P1pP1P1P/2P1KB2/QNP2BR1/R7 b - - 0 1

-0.44 51... Ka7
[D] 4q3/k2bn3/1pr1p1pr/p2pPp1n/P1pP1P1P/2P1KB2/QNP2BR1/R7 w - - 14 52

I'll be away now for several hours. We can continue later, but there seems to be little indication that White has any chance to win this. If I recall, the original goal was to demonstrate that the Winawer is losing for Black. My impression so far is that this is not the case, and that with correct play, Black can draw.

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

Ra1:

[d]4q3/1k1bn3/1pr1p1pr/p2pPp1n/P1pP1P1P/2P1KB2/QNP2BR1/R7 b - - 0 1

-0.44 51... Ka7
[D] 4q3/k2bn3/1pr1p1pr/p2pPp1n/P1pP1P1P/2P1KB2/QNP2BR1/R7 w - - 14 52

I'll be away now for several hours. We can continue later, but there seems to be little indication that White has any chance to win this. If I recall, the original goal was to demonstrate that the Winawer is losing for Black. My impression so far is that this is not the case, and that with correct play, Black can draw.

Nd1:

[d]4q3/k2bn3/1pr1p1pr/p2pPp1n/P1pP1P1P/2P1KB2/Q1P2BR1/R2N4 b - - 0 1

well, game is not finished, I am just starting to regroup.

5 moves since last pawn move, so 45 moves more to go until SF possibly saves itself thanks to FIDE.

even if the game is drawn, this will only come to show I was unable to demonstrate white advantage in this particular game, nothing more.
there are different tries, for example early Bd3 without Bb5 Bd7 included, as, although this prevents light-colour bishop change, it is too slow and additionally develops black's bishop to d7, which further helps with black kingside castling.
maybe it is better to change bishops, but push quickly f4-f5, so that black does not have time for f7-f5. who knows, years of investigation within?

also, all other options for black apart from castling long very easily lose, and as those feature in over 80% of human and engine games, I am fully right in claiming the Winaver is weak and either entirely lost or being very close to it.

it is a pity you and others did not see what I know for certain for most Winaver lines, but probably this is my predicament for this game, no matter how hard I would try, everything goes the wrong way.

SF scores should not beguile you, as they are now very consistent, they can change very quickly too.
white still has quite some advantage.

of course, if you are bored, we can stop any time.

[zullil]

Ra1:

[d]4q3/1k1bn3/1pr1p1pr/p2pPp1n/P1pP1P1P/2P1KB2/QNP2BR1/R7 b - - 0 1

-0.44 51... Ka7
[D] 4q3/k2bn3/1pr1p1pr/p2pPp1n/P1pP1P1P/2P1KB2/QNP2BR1/R7 w - - 14 52

I'll be away now for several hours. We can continue later, but there seems to be little indication that White has any chance to win this. If I recall, the original goal was to demonstrate that the Winawer is losing for Black. My impression so far is that this is not the case, and that with correct play, Black can draw.

We can continue whenever you wish. I did not need to leave after all.

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

Ra1:

[d]4q3/1k1bn3/1pr1p1pr/p2pPp1n/P1pP1P1P/2P1KB2/QNP2BR1/R7 b - - 0 1

-0.44 51... Ka7
[D] 4q3/k2bn3/1pr1p1pr/p2pPp1n/P1pP1P1P/2P1KB2/QNP2BR1/R7 w - - 14 52

I'll be away now for several hours. We can continue later, but there seems to be little indication that White has any chance to win this. If I recall, the original goal was to demonstrate that the Winawer is losing for Black. My impression so far is that this is not the case, and that with correct play, Black can draw.

We can continue whenever you wish. I did not need to leave after all.

I already played my move.

[zullil]

Ra1:

[d]4q3/1k1bn3/1pr1p1pr/p2pPp1n/P1pP1P1P/2P1KB2/QNP2BR1/R7 b - - 0 1

-0.44 51... Ka7
[D] 4q3/k2bn3/1pr1p1pr/p2pPp1n/P1pP1P1P/2P1KB2/QNP2BR1/R7 w - - 14 52

I'll be away now for several hours. We can continue later, but there seems to be little indication that White has any chance to win this. If I recall, the original goal was to demonstrate that the Winawer is losing for Black. My impression so far is that this is not the case, and that with correct play, Black can draw.

We can continue whenever you wish. I did not need to leave after all.

I already played my move.

Yes, I missed that post.

I had to stop and then restart asmFish. In the process, the hash got cleared, and it seems the evaluation of the position changed a bit. Or maybe asmFish is starting to agree more with you!

-0.31 52... Rc7
[D] 4q3/k1rbn3/1p2p1pr/p2pPp1n/P1pP1P1P/2P1KB2/Q1P2BR1/R2N4 w - - 16 53

By the way, I share your belief that the Winawer can turn out very badly for Black, and that there are many pitfalls that must be avoided. But I don't think the opening is losing in the theoretical sense. Probably a draw with perfect play, like almost every opening is likely to be.

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

Ra1:

[d]4q3/1k1bn3/1pr1p1pr/p2pPp1n/P1pP1P1P/2P1KB2/QNP2BR1/R7 b - - 0 1

-0.44 51... Ka7
[D] 4q3/k2bn3/1pr1p1pr/p2pPp1n/P1pP1P1P/2P1KB2/QNP2BR1/R7 w - - 14 52

I'll be away now for several hours. We can continue later, but there seems to be little indication that White has any chance to win this. If I recall, the original goal was to demonstrate that the Winawer is losing for Black. My impression so far is that this is not the case, and that with correct play, Black can draw.

We can continue whenever you wish. I did not need to leave after all.

I already played my move.

Yes, I missed that post.

I had to stop and then restart asmFish. In the process, the hash got cleared, and it seems the evaluation of the position changed a bit. Or maybe asmFish is starting to agree more with you!

-0.31 52... Rc7
[D] 4q3/k1rbn3/1p2p1pr/p2pPp1n/P1pP1P1P/2P1KB2/Q1P2BR1/R2N4 w - - 16 53

By the way, I share your belief that the Winawer can turn out very badly for Black, and that there are many pitfalls that must be avoided. But I don't think the opening is losing in the theoretical sense. Probably a draw with perfect play, like almost every opening is likely to be.

70% of mainstream openings are lost.

starting with the Grob, a theoretical one, for which engines show +80 from the very fist moves.

all black gambits are lost too, and theory has plenty of them.

etc., etc.

theory has 80% of Winaver lines featuring castling short, and they are all lost.

Winaver castling long is disputable, will need much more analysis to come to a definite conclusion.

Be1:

[d]4q3/k1rbn3/1p2p1pr/p2pPp1n/P1pP1P1P/2P1KB2/Q1P3R1/R2NB3 b - - 0 1

to tell you the truth, I can not fully concentrate on this game, and as of late even partially, and that might explain sufficiently my bad handling of the position, but otherwise, the game itself is very interesting.

it is a pity SF did not fall for a single trap until now.

but you are very good operator, after all.

[zullil]

Be1:

[d]4q3/k1rbn3/1p2p1pr/p2pPp1n/P1pP1P1P/2P1KB2/Q1P3R1/R2NB3 b - - 0 1

to tell you the truth, I can not fully concentrate on this game, and as of late even partially, and that might explain sufficiently my bad handling of the position, but otherwise, the game itself is very interesting.

it is a pity SF did not fall for a single trap until now.

but you are very good operator, after all.

That asmFish has avoided traps is likely due to the fact that it is searching to depths of 45-50, and certainly has nothing to do with the operator.

-0.77 53... Qh8
[D] 7q/k1rbn3/1p2p1pr/p2pPp1n/P1pP1P1P/2P1KB2/Q1P3R1/R2NB3 w - - 18 54

Perhaps you should take a well-earned break and reconsider your previous move. We can continue later, or decide to stop at any point.

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

Be1:

[d]4q3/k1rbn3/1p2p1pr/p2pPp1n/P1pP1P1P/2P1KB2/Q1P3R1/R2NB3 b - - 0 1

to tell you the truth, I can not fully concentrate on this game, and as of late even partially, and that might explain sufficiently my bad handling of the position, but otherwise, the game itself is very interesting.

it is a pity SF did not fall for a single trap until now.

but you are very good operator, after all.

That asmFish has avoided traps is likely due to the fact that it is searching to depths of 45-50, and certainly has nothing to do with the operator.

-0.77 53... Qh8
[D] 7q/k1rbn3/1p2p1pr/p2pPp1n/P1pP1P1P/2P1KB2/Q1P3R1/R2NB3 w - - 18 54

Perhaps you should take a well-earned break and reconsider your previous move. We can continue later, or decide to stop at any point.

nothing to reconsider, Qa3:

[d]7q/k1rbn3/1p2p1pr/p2pPp1n/P1pP1P1P/Q1P1KB2/2P3R1/R2NB3 b - - 0 1

let's finish for today, tomorrow, same place, same time, unless they close talkchess.

my problem probably is that I am playing at the same time this game, Andrew's position and Dany Rensch Komodo handicap game, to enumerate just a few, and, as a result, fail everywhere.

probably I should scale down my activities.
of course, this is the most interesting one.

of course, it is due to the operator.
you know extremely well when to do a quick search, and when to let it calculate to significant depth, it is actually very rarely that you have done that wrong, must have some algorithm there, after all, you are a very experienced SF operator.

[zullil]

nothing to reconsider, Qa3:

[d]7q/k1rbn3/1p2p1pr/p2pPp1n/P1pP1P1P/Q1P1KB2/2P3R1/R2NB3 b - - 0 1

let's finish for today, tomorrow, same place, same time, unless they close talkchess.

-0.79 54... Be8
[D] 4b2q/k1r1n3/1p2p1pr/p2pPp1n/P1pP1P1P/Q1P1KB2/2P3R1/R2NB3 w - - 20 55