KNPPKBP longest win

Arpad Rusz · Post by **Arpad Rusz** » Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:41 am

[pgn]
[Event "EG#188"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2012.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Bourzutschky & Konoval"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "1-0"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "8/2p5/8/8/6b1/1PP5/K7/1N5k w - - 0 0"]
[PlyCount "203"]

{"For the KNPPKBP endgame the longest win is 102 moves and there is only one
record position."} 1. Na3 Kg2 2. Nb5 c6 3. Nd4 c5 4. Nb5 Kg3 5. Nc7 Bc8 6. Na8
Ba6 7. Nb6 Kf4 8. Nd7 c4 9. b4 Bb5 10. Nc5 Ke5 11. Nb7 Bc6 12. Na5 Bb5 13. Kb2
Kd5 14. Nb7 Bc6 15. Nd8 Kd6 16. Nf7+ Ke6 17. Nh6 Ke5 18. Kc2 Bd5 19. Ng4+ Kf4
20. Nf2 Bf3 21. Kc1 Kf5 22. Kd2 Ke5 23. Ke3 Bg2 24. Nd1 Bh3 25. Kd2 Bf5 26. Ne3
Bd3 27. Ng4+ Kf4 28. Nf6 Bf5 29. Nd5+ Ke4 30. Ne3 Be6 31. Nc2 Bg4 32. Nd4 Ke5
33. Kc1 Kd6 34. Kc2 Bh5 35. Nf5+ Ke5 36. Ne3 Bf7 37. Kb2 Ke4 38. Nc2 Bh5 39.
Nd4 Kd5 40. Ka3 Bd1 41. Nf5 Kc6 42. Ne3 Bb3 43. Kb2 Kc7 44. Nf5 Ba4 45. Kc1 Kd7
46. Nh6 Ke6 47. Kd2 Ke5 48. Ke3 Bd1 49. Nf7+ Ke6 50. Ng5+ Ke5 51. Ne4 Be2 52.
Nd2 Bd3 53. Nf3+ Kd5 54. Nh2 Be4 55. Kf4 Bg6 56. Ng4 Bd3 57. Ne3+ Ke6 58. Nd1
Bc2 59. Nb2 Kd5 60. Kg5 Bd3 61. Kf6 Kd6 62. Nd1 Be4 63. Ne3 Bd3 64. Ng4 Be2 65.
Ne5 Bd3 66. Nf7+ Kd5 67. Nd8 Kd6 68. Nb7+ Kc7 69. Na5 Kd6 70. Kf7 Kd7 71. Nb7
Be2 72. Kf6 Kc7 73. Nc5 Kd6 74. Kf5 Kd5 75. Kf4 Bf1 76. Nd7 Kd6 77. Nf6 Ke6 78.
Ne4 Be2 79. Nc5+ Kd5 80. Na4 Bd3 81. Ke3 Bf1 82. Nb6+ Ke5 83. Kf3 Bd3 84. Nd7+
Kd6 85. Nc5 Bf5 86. Kf4 Bg6 87. Ke3 Kd5 88. Nd7 Bd3 89. Nf6+ Ke6 90. Ng4 Kd5
91. Kf4 Be2 92. Ne3+ Kc6 93. Kf5 Bd3+ 94. Ke5 Kb6 95. Nf5 Kb7 96. Nd4 Ka6 97.
Ke6 Be4 98. Nf5 Bc6 99. Nd6 Ba4 100. Ke5 Bb3 101. Kd4 Kb6 102. Nxc4+ {
"Attention, please! After 9.b4!! White has to make 92 moves without moving a
pawn and capturing. A surprising example of a 50 move rule exception!"} 1-0
[/pgn]

Bourzutschky & Konoval uses Depth to Conversion as a metric (DTC102), the position is a DTM132 (Lomonosov). Engines doesn't help to find the solution not only because of the big depth but also because of the 50 moves rule.
There is a very cool position in the solution, I will let for you as a challenge to find it.

Nordlandia · Post by **Nordlandia** » Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:01 pm

Is cursed wins allowed in correspondence?

syzygy · Post by **syzygy** » Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:31 pm

Nordlandia wrote:Is cursed wins allowed in correspondence?

Only with 6 pieces or less left on the board.

Or to be more precise: correspondence chess as defined by the ICCF rules is a game similar to chess where the goal is to achieve mate or a position that is scored by the 3/4/5/6-piece Convekta tablebases as a win. There is no way to be sure that these positions coincide with the set of positions in chess winnable without 50-move rule; you just have to trust Convekta.

Nordlandia · Post by **Nordlandia** » Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:24 pm

syzygy wrote:
Nordlandia wrote:Is cursed wins allowed in correspondence?
Only with 6 pieces or less left on the board.

Or to be more precise: correspondence chess as defined by the ICCF rules is a game similar to chess where the goal is to achieve mate or a position that is scored by the 3/4/5/6-piece Convekta tablebases as a win. There is no way to be sure that these positions coincide with the set of positions in chess winnable without 50-move rule; you just have to trust Convekta.

Doesn't players consulting 7-piece lomonosov tablebases cause collusion with current rules?

syzygy · Post by **syzygy** » Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:07 pm

Nordlandia wrote:Doesn't players consulting 7-piece lomonosov tablebases cause collusion with current rules?

I don't think ICCF rules forbid players from accessing databases.

But a player cannot claim a win based on a 7-piece win according to Lomonosov. He/she will have to play out the win until a winning 6-piece position is reached. If the 50-move rule kicks in before the conversion to 6 pieces, the "losing" side can claim a draw. But if the 6-piece win is a cursed win, then that does not matter: the 6-piece Lomonosov/Convekta tables count cursed wins as wins.

RIDDICK · Post by **RIDDICK** » Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:52 am

syzygy wrote:If the 50-move rule kicks in before the conversion to 6 pieces, the "losing" side can claim a draw.

It's no longer so. The proposal about Eliminate 50-Move Rule when a 7-Piece Ending is Present was approved (ICCF Congress 2017).

Nordlandia · Post by **Nordlandia** » Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:00 am

RIDDICK wrote:
syzygy wrote:If the 50-move rule kicks in before the conversion to 6 pieces, the "losing" side can claim a draw.
It's no longer so. The proposal about Eliminate 50-Move Rule when a 7-Piece Ending is Present was approved (ICCF Congress 2017).

That website require account login to view content.

Copy over here

syzygy · Post by **syzygy** » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:10 am

RIDDICK wrote:
syzygy wrote:If the 50-move rule kicks in before the conversion to 6 pieces, the "losing" side can claim a draw.
It's no longer so. The proposal about Eliminate 50-Move Rule when a 7-Piece Ending is Present was approved (ICCF Congress 2017).

Thanks for the update!

MikeB · Post by **MikeB** » Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:10 am

syzygy wrote:There is no way to be sure that these positions coincide with the set of positions in chess winnable without 50-move rule; you just have to trust Convekta.

I have enabled Stockifish, in a GUI , to determine mate in a 6 man endgame that exceeds the 50 move rule when the user wants to know if it is mate when the 50 move rule is not enforced.

The position below is a draw by 50 move rule and it's a win under ICCF rules where no 50 move rule applies in 6 man or less ending.

[d]8/8/8/K7/8/kpR5/2R5/r7 b - - 0 1

Of course you have to set the UCI Option for Syzygy50MoveRule to false and also use a GUI that does not force the 50 man rule to be followed. And if you are using polyglot, that also has to be modified slightly or it will also declare draw by 50 move rule.

For those who are not familiar with creating Ron's syzygy tablebases, the output for each set e.g., KRRvKRP, identifies the longest cursed win for that set , cursed win being a forced win without the 50 man rule and a draw under the 50 man rule.

Syzygy output in KRRvKRP.txt:

Code: Select all

Longest cursed win for white&#58; 114 ply; 8/8/8/K7/8/kpR5/2R5/r7 b - -

Output for the above position with no 50 man rule.

Code: Select all

dep	score	nodes	time	&#40;not shown&#58;  tbhits	knps	seldep&#41;
 62	+132.79 	10.3G	4&#58;55.98	Rh1 Rf2 Rh3 Rc4 Rh5+ Kb6 Rh6+ Kb5 Rh5+ Kc6 Rh6+ Kd5 Rh5+ Ke6 Rh6+ Kf5 Rh8 Re2 Rf8+ Kg6 Rg8+ Kf7 Rb8 Re3 Rb4 Rc7 Ra4 Rd3 Rb4 Rf3 Ra4 Rcc3 Rb4 Rc8 Ra4 Rb8 Rb4 Rh8 Ra4 Rd3 Rb4 Ra8+ Ra4 Rad8 Rb4 Rf3 Ra4 Rc8 Ka2 Rf2+ b2 Rb8 Ra7+ Kf 
&#91;snip&#93;
 10	+132.79 	293975	0&#58;00.02	Rh1 Rd2 Rh3 Rc1 b2 Rb1 Rb3 Rh2 Rb8 Rh3+ Ka2 Rhh1 Kb3 Rhd1 Ka2 
  9	+132.79 	81120  	0&#58;00.01	Rh1 Re2 Rh5+ Kb6 Rh6+ Kc5 Rh5+ Kd6 Rh6+ Ke5 Rh5+ Kf4 Rh4+ Kf5 Rh5+ Kg4 Rb5 Rce3 
  8	+132.79 	25301  	0&#58;00.01	Rh1 Re2 Rh5+ Kb6 Rh8 Rce3 Kb4 Rf3 Rc8 
  7	+132.79 	22106  	0&#58;00.01	Rh1 Re2 Rh8 Rce3 Rb8 Rf2 Rb7 
  6	+132.79 	14307  	0&#58;00.01	Rh1 Kb5 Rh8 Re2 Rb8+ Ka6 Rb4 
  5	+132.79 	5544    	0&#58;00.01	Rh1 Re2 Rh5+ Kb6 Rd5 Rh3 
  4	+132.79 	2842    	0&#58;00.01	Rh1 Re2 Rh5+ Kb6 Rh1 
  3	+132.79 	1322    	0&#58;00.01	Rh1 Rd2 Rf1 
  2	+132.79 	829      	0&#58;00.01	Rh1 Re3 Rd1 
  1	+132.79 	17        	0&#58;00.01	Rh1

Output with the 50 Move Rule being followed

Code: Select all

dep	score	nodes	time	&#40;not shown&#58;  tbhits	knps	seldep&#41;
 39	  0.00 	121.4M	0&#58;03.82	Rh1 Re2 Rh3 Rc4 Rh5+ Kb6 Rh3 Rc5 Rh6+ Kc7 Rh7+ Kd6 Rh6+ Ke7 Rh4 Rc3 Rb4 Rf3 Ka4 Rb2 Ka3 Rff2 Rb6 Kd7 Rb5 Kc6 Rb4 Kc5 Rb8 Kd4 Rd8+ Kc4 Rc8+ Kd3 Rd8+ Ke3 Rb8 Ke4 Rb5 Rg2 Rb4+ Kd5 Rb8 Kc5 Rc8+ Kd5 
&#91;snip&#93; 
 10	  0.00 	159598	0&#58;00.01	Rh1 Rf2 Rh5+ Kb6 Kb4 Rc1 Rh6+ Kc7 Ka3 Ra1+ Kb4 Rb1 Rh5 Rf4+ Ka3 Rf3 Rb5 Ra1+ Kb2 
  9	  0.00 	120286	0&#58;00.00	Rh1 Rf2 Rh5+ Kb6 Kb4 Rc1 Rh6+ Kc7 Ka3 Ra1+ Kb4 Rb1 
  8	  0.00 	31184  	0&#58;00.00	Rh1 Rd2 Rh5+ Kb6 Kb4 Rc1 Rh6+ Kc7 Rh4 Rg1 
  7	  0.00 	15562  	0&#58;00.00	Rh1 Rd3 Rh5+ Kb6 Re5 Rcc3 Re6+ Kc5 Re5+ Kd4 
  6	  0.00 	6761    	0&#58;00.00	Rh1 Kb5 Rg1 Rd2 Rg5+ Kc4 Rg4+ Kc5 
  5	  0.00 	5047    	0&#58;00.00	Rh1 Kb5 Rg1 Rd2 Rg5+ Kc4 
  4	  0.00 	2918    	0&#58;00.00	Rh1 Kb5 Re1 Rd2 
  3	  0.00 	1752    	0&#58;00.00	Rh1 Rd2 Re1 
  2	  0.00 	1183    	0&#58;00.00	Rh1 Rf3 Rh5+ Kb6 
  1	  0.00 	407      	0&#58;00.00	Rh1

The above output from xboard three 50 move rule settings to be turned off, the one in Stockfish, the polyglot adapter ( requires a modified version of ployglot, pm me if anyone would like the source) and finally set the GUI xBoard setting to draw after 999 moves ( or something sufficiently high enough- I think 600 would do it). It is ridiculous today that it require three switches in three places - but xBoard and polyglot were originally written when the 50 move rule was almost always enforced and many engines were not coded to follow the 50 move rule, Crafty and a few others being the exceptions. So the GUI and polyglot programmers took it upon themselves to enforce the 50 move rule as a convenience for the users (that is conjecture on my part).

MikeB · Post by **MikeB** » Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:26 am

How the win might look like (this is not the shortest solution):
[d]8/8/8/K7/8/kpR5/2R5/r7 b - - 0 1:

[pgn][Event "Mac Pro x5690 3.46 Ghz 18 CPU"]
[Site "Mac-Pro.local"]
[Date "2017.09.12"]
[Round "-"]
[White "SF-McBrain v2.8a 64 POPC"]
[Black "SF-McBrain v2.8a 64 POPC"]
[Result "1-0"]
[TimeControl "60+1"]
[FEN "8/8/8/K7/8/kpR5/2R5/r7 b - - 0 1"]
[SetUp "1"]
1... Rh1 {-132.79/3 +60} 2. Rf2 {+132.79/2 +60} Rh3 {-132.79/5 +61} 3. Rc4
{+132.79/1 +61} Rh5+ {-132.79/2 +62} 4. Ka6 {+132.79/19 +62} Rh6+
{-132.79/32 +61} 5. Kb5 {+132.79/31 +63} Rh5+ {-132.79/32 +62} 6. Kc6
{+132.79/30 +64} Rh6+ {-132.79/33 +63} 7. Kd5 {+132.79/39 +63} Rh5+
{-132.79/37 +64} 8. Ke6 {+132.79/35 +64} Rh6+ {-132.79/38 +65} 9. Ke5
{+132.79/37 +64} Rh5+ {-132.79/1 +66} 10. Kf6 {+132.79/37 +65} Rh8
{-132.79/34 +67} 11. Kf7 {+132.79/35 +66} Rh7+ {-132.79/28 +68} 12. Kg6
{+132.79/1 +67} Rb7 {-132.79/32 +68} 13. Rf3 {+132.79/38 +68} Ka2
{-132.79/31 +69} 14. Ra4+ {+132.79/1 +69} Kb1 {-132.79/26 +70} 15. Rf1+
{+132.79/27 +70} Kb2 {-132.79/27 +71} 16. Kf6 {+132.79/4 +70} Rb5
{-132.79/3 +72} 17. Ke6 {+132.79/32 +69} Rc5 {-132.79/1 +73} 18. Rb4
{+132.79/1 +70} Ka3 {-132.79/1 +74} 19. Rb8 {+132.79/26 +69} Ka2
{-132.79/36 +75} 20. Kd6 {+132.79/5 +70} Rc3 {-132.79/1 +76} 21. Ra8+
{+132.79/18 +71} Kb2 {-132.79/16 +77} 22. Kd5 {+132.79/27 +70} Rc1
{-132.79/30 +77} 23. Rf3 {+132.79/24 +71} Rc3 {-132.79/3 +78} 24. Rff8
{+132.79/25 +72} Kb1 {-132.79/3 +79} 25. Ra3 {+132.79/25 +73} Kb2
{-132.79/4 +80} 26. Rfa8 {+132.79/24 +74} Rc7 {-132.79/3 +81} 27. R3a4
{+132.79/27 +73} Kb1 {-132.79/37 +69} 28. Ra1+ {+132.79/36 +74} Kb2
{-132.79/24 +70} 29. Rh1 {+132.79/44 +69} Rc1 {-132.79/1 +71} 30. Rh3
{+132.79/44 +70} Rc3 {-132.79/22 +72} 31. Rhh8 {+132.79/43 +71} Kb1
{-132.79/22 +73} 32. Ra3 {+132.79/40 +72} Kb2 {-132.79/22 +74} 33. Kd4
{+132.79/38 +73} Rc2 {-132.79/21 +75} 34. Rha8 {+132.79/25 +74} Rc1
{-132.79/3 +75} 35. R3a5 {+132.79/42 +73} Kb1 {-132.79/1 +76} 36. Ra1+
{+132.79/35 +73} Kb2 {-132.79/42 +77} 37. R1a3 {+132.79/27 +74} Rh1
{-132.79/1 +78} 38. R3a6 {+132.79/32 +61} Rh4+ {-132.79/44 +79} 39. Ke3
{+132.79/24 +61} Rh3+ {-132.79/1 +80} 40. Kf4 {+132.79/31 +45} Rh4+
{-132.79/27 +78} 41. Kg3 {+132.79/38 +46} Rb4 {-132.79/3 +79} 42. Rh8
{+132.79/16 +47} Kc2 {-132.79/4 +80} 43. Rh2+ {+132.79/1 +48} Kc3
{-132.79/24 +79} 44. Rc6+ {+132.79/26 +47} Rc4 {-132.79/1 +80} 45. Re6
{+132.79/27 +47} Kb4 {-132.79/3 +81} 46. Rb6+ {+132.79/35 +34} Ka3
{-132.79/1 +82} 47. Kf3 {+132.79/26 +35} Rc2 {-132.79/3 +82} 48. Rh8
{+132.79/1 +36} Rc3+ {-132.79/38 +80} 49. Ke4 {+132.79/44 +37} Ka2
{-132.79/31 +81} 50. Kd4 {+132.79/1 +38} Rc7 {-132.79/1 +82} 51. Rhb8
{+132.79/1 +39} Rd7+ {-132.79/1 +83} 52. Kc3 {+132.79/127 +40} Rc7+
{-132.79/1 +84} 53. Kb4 {+132.79/127 +41} Ra7 {-132.79/127 +85} 54. R6b7
{+132.79/127 +41} Ra6 {-132.79/1 +85} 55. Kc5 {+132.79/1 +42} Ra3
{-132.79/127 +86} 56. Rb4 {+132.79/127 +43} Ra5+ {-132.79/127 +87} 57. Kc4
{+132.79/1 +44} Ra3 {-132.79/127 +88} 58. Rxb3 {+132.79/2 +45} Ra6
{-1000.08/49 +82} 59. Rb2+ {+1000.08/41 +44} Ka1 {-1000.07/54 +83} 60. Rb1+
{+1000.07/42 +44} Ka2 {-1000.06/53 +84} 61. R8b2+ {+1000.06/55 +44} Ka3
{-1000.05/63 +85} 62. Rb6 {+1000.05/62 +44} Ra4+ {-1000.04/86 +83} 63. Kc3
{+1000.04/90 +43} Rc4+ {-1000.03/100 +84} 64. Kxc4 {+1000.03/127 +44} Ka2
{-1000.02/127 +85} 65. R1b4 {+1000.02/127 +45} Ka1 {-1000.01/127 +86} 66.
Ra6# {+1000.01/127 +46}
{White mates} 1-0[/pgn]

KNPPKBP longest win

KNPPKBP longest win

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