Gaviota, Wasp, The Baron, Pro Deo

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

Moderators: hgm, Rebel, chrisw

PK
Posts: 893
Joined: Mon Jan 15, 2007 11:23 am
Location: Warsza

Re: Gaviota, Wasp, The Baron, Pro Deo

Post by PK »

@Brendan, it looks like You have done something great with Rodent's settings yet again :) You are much better at using all these parameters than me, despite the fact that I designed them! If You want, I can leave designing personalities named after real players entirely to You. If You would like to prepare a package of such personalities by mid-December, then it will become part and parcel of official Rodent III release, with credits and all. You can safely use 0.212 version to that goal - right now I'm trying to tune eval parameters automatically, but personalities will keep using the current set of values.

@Boban, I know that endgames are tricky and that Rodent becomes a bit weaker towards the end of the game. But coding them is even more tricky. First of all, I'm not a very competent endgame player. I know a couple of "can't win that" patterns, and coded them into Rodent, but my engine has endgame problems way earlier than these patterns can influence score.

Perhaps the general problem is that Rodent's evaluation functon is skewed towards the middlegame. It knows quite a bit about positioning minor pieces (defended, in a hole of enemy pawn structure, able to reach such a hole, attackable by enemy pawn, hidden behind own pawn, restricted to own half of the board, special code for fianchetto and for a bishop returning to f1 after white king made a short castle...) In the endgame this knowledge becomes meaningless, and apparently all the details of passed pawn evaluation are not on the same level.

Another issue is adding endgame knowledge. Coding one pattern is essentially easy. But after the pattern is added, search becomes really creative about finding similar positions that do not match this pattern. So it is not enough to block one way of going wrong - one has to find basically all of them.

Also, basic human intuitions surprisingly often fail to work when translated into code. Recently I tested a simple patch that said "pawn endings should be scored to 110% of their value", so that Rodent would prefer to defend rook endgame (or a minor piece endgame) while a pawn down. And it weakened the engine.

In short, I do not know what to do about the endgames. It might be a search issue. Rodent might need a different set of pruning/reduction margins for the endgame. Or some of the weaknesses might be fixed by working on that little specialized move generator that is used on the first ply of the quiescence search. I simply don't know.
BrendanJNorman
Posts: 2526
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2016 12:43 am
Full name: Brendan J Norman

Re: Gaviota, Wasp, The Baron, Pro Deo

Post by BrendanJNorman »

PK wrote:@Brendan, it looks like You have done something great with Rodent's settings yet again :) You are much better at using all these parameters than me, despite the fact that I designed them! If You want, I can leave designing personalities named after real players entirely to You. If You would like to prepare a package of such personalities by mid-December, then it will become part and parcel of official Rodent III release, with credits and all. You can safely use 0.212 version to that goal - right now I'm trying to tune eval parameters automatically, but personalities will keep using the current set of values.

Also, basic human intuitions surprisingly often fail to work when translated into code. Recently I tested a simple patch that said "pawn endings should be scored to 110% of their value", so that Rodent would prefer to defend rook endgame (or a minor piece endgame) while a pawn down. And it weakened the engine.

In short, I do not know what to do about the endgames. It might be a search issue. Rodent might need a different set of pruning/reduction margins for the endgame. Or some of the weaknesses might be fixed by working on that little specialized move generator that is used on the first ply of the quiescence search. I simply don't know.
Thanks Pawel.

I'd love to help out with the GM personalities, I have studied most of the world champions pretty deeply - so can hopefully contribute something.

Here are some results from today with the "Carlsen" personality.

Rodent III Carlsen vs CM9000 Tribute - 2-0

Rodent III Carlsen vs Frenzee 3.5.19 - 1.5..5

Rodent III Carlsen vs Gaviota 1.0 - 2-0!

Rodent III Carlsen vs Hakapelitta 3.0 - 1.5-.5!

Rodent III Carlsen vs Hiarcs 12.1 - 2-0!

Rodent III Carlsen vs Ktulu 9 - 1-1

Rodent III Carlsen vs Naum 2.0 - 2-0

Rodent III Carlsen vs Prodeo 2.5 (default) - 1-1

Rodent III Carlsen vs Thinker 5.1c Passive - 1-1

Rodent III Carlsen vs Thinker 5.4d Passive - 2-0

Rodent III Carlsen vs Thinker 5.3b Inert - 1-1

Rodent III Carlsen vs Toga 3.1.2 SE Checkov - 2-0

Rodent III Carlsen vs Wasp 2.0 - 1-1 (2 draws)

Look at this game against Hakkapelitta 3.0 :)

A nice sample. Supreme use of knights!

[pgn][Event "Rodent Carlsen Test"]
[Site "China"]
[Date "2017.09.18"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Rodent III 0.210 Carlsen"]
[Black "Hakkapeliitta 3.0"]
[Result "1-0"]
[PlyCount "156"]
[EventDate "2017.??.??"]
[EventType "blitz"]

1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. Qb3 dxc4 5. Qxc4 h6 6. e3 Be6 7. Qc2 Na6 8. Bd2
Qb6 9. Nc3 Nb4 10. Qb1 Qa5 11. e4 Bb3 12. Bd3 Nxd3+ 13. Qxd3 Be6 14. O-O Qh5
15. h3 Rd8 16. Rac1 g6 17. Ne2 Qb5 18. Qxb5 cxb5 19. d5 Bc8 20. Ng3 h5 21. Bg5
Nh7 22. Bf4 h4 23. Ne2 Nf6 24. Be5 Rh5 25. Bxf6 exf6 26. Nf4 Rh8 27. Nd3 Bd6
28. Nd4 a6 29. Rc3 Kf8 30. f4 Kg7 31. e5 Bb8 32. d6 Ba7 33. Nc5 Rh5 34. Re1
fxe5 35. fxe5 Rxd6 36. exd6 Bxc5 37. Kh1 Rd5 38. Rd1 Bxd4 39. Rxc8 Rxd6 40. Rc7
b6 41. b4 a5 42. bxa5 bxa5 43. Rb7 Rd5 44. Re7 Rd8 45. Re4 Bf6 46. Rxd8 Bxd8
47. Rd4 Be7 48. Rd5 a4 49. Rxb5 Kf6 50. Kg1 Ke6 51. Kf2 a3 52. Ke3 Kd6 53. Kf4
Ke6 54. Rb6+ Kd5 55. Rb3 Ke6 56. Re3+ Kf6 57. Kg4 Bc5 58. Rb3 Bd6 59. Kxh4 Be7
60. Kg4 Ke5 61. Kf3 Bc5 62. h4 Be7 63. Re3+ Kf6 64. g4 Bc5 65. Rb3 Kg7 66. Ke4
Bf8 67. Kd5 Be7 68. g5 Kg8 69. Rb5 Bf8 70. Rb8 Kg7 71. Kc6 Be7 72. Rb5 Kg8 73.
Kd7 Bf8 74. Rb8 Kg7 75. Rb7 Kg8 76. Ke8 Bd6 77. Rxf7 Be5 78. Ra7 Bb2 1-0[/pgn]

The two wins against Gaviota were nice too.
Achieving this positional style while maintaining 2900 Elo is really cool.

Do you have an email address I can share the settings with? Use the flank.bin openings and it'll be exactly the same as I used.
matejst
Posts: 364
Joined: Mon May 14, 2007 8:20 pm
Full name: Boban Stanojević

Re: Gaviota, Wasp, The Baron, Pro Deo

Post by matejst »

Pawel,

I am aware that it's probably quite difficult: when somebody makes an engine playing ~3000 ELO he's certainly a very able programmer.

I really don't know how to post games, but I'll try to pm the game I saw to Brendan.

But just like you said, human intuition is sometimes fast: I saw the best move (it was quite obvious) while watching the game. I still analyze that position: Gaviota and Gandalf found the best answer almost immediately, The Baron too, with winning continuations (although I have to check alternatives), all three under 12 plies. Wasp failed, Komodo 9 too, but Rodent found it first at 13 pl, then opted definitely for the right move at 16 pl. Have to check other engines. I guess it's the number of reductions used: time wise, it found the right answer very quickly, probably faster than Gandalf, but at a deeper depth.
PK
Posts: 893
Joined: Mon Jan 15, 2007 11:23 am
Location: Warsza

Re: Gaviota, Wasp, The Baron, Pro Deo

Post by PK »

@Brendan, You can send me the personalities to the address pp.koziol@gmail.com
pijl
Posts: 115
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:59 pm

Re: Gaviota, Wasp, The Baron, Pro Deo

Post by pijl »

matejst wrote:I am also interested in a more recent version of The Baron. Basically, I like to analyze and sometimes play against positionnal engines, and those some of my favourite (although I have recently discovered Zarkov 6.55, which also has a very... understandable style of play). I also think that the paradigm in computer chess these engine represent is not a dead end, quite the opposite, and that these engines have awful lot to offer.
The Baron 3.41 is now available on chessprogramming.net
Thanks to Steve for hosting.
Richard.
pijl
Posts: 115
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:59 pm

Re: Gaviota, Wasp, The Baron, Pro Deo

Post by pijl »

matejst wrote:I am also interested in a more recent version of The Baron. Basically, I like to analyze and sometimes play against positionnal engines, and those some of my favourite (although I have recently discovered Zarkov 6.55, which also has a very... understandable style of play). I also think that the paradigm in computer chess these engine represent is not a dead end, quite the opposite, and that these engines have awful lot to offer.
The Baron 3.41 is now available on chessprogramming.net
Thanks to Steve for hosting.
Richard.
User avatar
Steve Maughan
Posts: 1221
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:28 pm
Location: Florida, USA

Re: Gaviota, Wasp, The Baron, Pro Deo

Post by Steve Maughan »

The very latest verion of The Baron has just been released.

See here for more details:

https://www.chessprogramming.net/the-baron/

Steve
http://www.chessprogramming.net - Maverick Chess Engine
User avatar
Werner
Posts: 2871
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 10:09 pm
Location: Germany
Full name: Werner Schüle

Re: Gaviota, Wasp, The Baron, Pro Deo

Post by Werner »

Thank you very much, Richard!

We shall test it soon.
Werner