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Human versus Machine
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Lyudmil Tsvetkov



Joined: 12 Jun 2012
Posts: 5806

PostPost subject: Re: Part 2    Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 2:08 am Reply to topic Reply with quote

Here just reposting a brief reply of mine to a disbelieving member from a chess forum
(so that people are aware in what way a human may get an advantage against the top engines in the 4 mentioned structures):

Forum member wrote:
It does not make much sense to play king's Indian defense as the computer is especially strong in sharp positions
Playing the stonewall as white is known to be bad as it almost guarantees black a way to trade off his light squared bishops leaving white permanantly crippled and as black it is supposed to be good only under certain circumstances, which you will not get very often.
It's incredibly difficult, if not impossible to get the c6, d5, e4 pawn structure as black in the opening if white doesn't play badly and even if you do get it, you get positions similar to the Caro-Kann and French, which are both well respected and it's hard to see any fantastic advantage you obtain in getting these structures.
The 'central bind structure' is playable as white, but doesn't give much advantage and with white playing properly, it's very difficult to get as black.
However, the computer does have difficulty in playing against the king's Indian attack-like setup you mentioned before (with e4, e6, d3, d5, nc3, d4) and I think that you can get an advantage against it. But an advantage is all and I fail to see how anyone besides another engine can convert it into a win against such powerful defenders.


The king's Indian Defence involving d6-e5-f4 pawns is a closed one and far from sharp, so that is precisely
the position a human would like to get.
KID=KIA with black, so if the KIA is good, the KID is good too. One tempo is not of such a critical significance
at the current level of top engines.
Concerning the Stonewall Attack, indeed, white has fully equal, draw, at most, if black plays Bf5 early on to trade
light square bishops, but, fortunately, even current Stockfish development still prefers e6 and Bb7/a6(not Komodo though).
c6-d5-e4 is not that hard to get, both Stockfish and Komodo like a line like 1. d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Nf3 g6!(this is the trick,
definitely strongest continuation) 5. e3 Bg4!(again, best) 6. h3(that is how top engines play) Bg4 7. Qf3(bishop pair lacking,
but the queen is very displaced here) e6, then Bd6/g7, and at some point e6-e5 break is pushed.
de5 is rarely good, so there are excellent chances black will push e5-e4 later on, getting the abovementioned structure.
Of course, as the game is closed, engines see nothing, black will get decisive advantage only 20 moves later after a lot
of regrouping.
On the contrary, the central bind is best possilbe disposition for white at all, as 1. c4 is definitely white's best possible move.
For example, 1. c4! e5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. e4!(g3 first, followed by Bg2 is also possible), and white gets big advantage, not sure if
winning though.
With black, you can get that for example from the Sicilian, Nimzovich-Rossolimo variation(see the game I just posted), as top engines
still prefer 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 g6 4. Nc3? Later black plays Bg7 and e5, and the bind is there. Very simple.
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Display posts from previous:   
Subject Author Date/Time
Human versus Machine Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sun Oct 08, 2017 5:44 am
      Re: Human versus Machine Milos Stanisavljevic Sun Oct 08, 2017 6:54 pm
            Re: Human versus Machine Lyudmil Tsvetkov Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:25 am
      Re: Human versus Machine Lyudmil Tsvetkov Tue Oct 10, 2017 2:56 am
            Re: Human versus Machine Lyudmil Tsvetkov Tue Oct 10, 2017 2:59 am
                  Re: Human versus Machine Adam Kostas Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:24 pm
                        Re: Human versus Machine Lyudmil Tsvetkov Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:23 am
      Re: Human versus Machine Michael B Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:24 am
            Re: Human versus Machine Nay Lin Tun Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:20 pm
                  Re: Human versus Machine Michael B Thu Oct 12, 2017 5:29 pm
                  Re: Human versus Machine Adam Kostas Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:20 pm
                        Re: Human versus Machine Lyudmil Tsvetkov Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:57 am
                  Re: Human versus Machine Lyudmil Tsvetkov Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:53 am
                        Re: Human versus Machine Uri Blass Fri Oct 27, 2017 7:55 pm
                              Re: Human versus Machine Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Oct 28, 2017 2:34 am
            Re: Human versus Machine Lyudmil Tsvetkov Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:32 am
                  Re: Human versus Machine Lyudmil Tsvetkov Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:42 am
                  Re: Human versus Machine Michael B Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:55 am
                        Re: Human versus Machine Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Oct 14, 2017 6:42 am
                              Re: Human versus Machine Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Oct 14, 2017 6:46 am
                                    Part 2 Lyudmil Tsvetkov Fri Oct 27, 2017 6:01 am
                                          Re: Part 2 Lyudmil Tsvetkov Fri Oct 27, 2017 6:05 am
                                                Re: Part 2 Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Oct 28, 2017 2:08 am
                                                      Re: Part 2 Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Oct 28, 2017 2:16 am
                                                            A blast from the past Lyudmil Tsvetkov Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:35 am
                                                                  Re: A blast from the past Lyudmil Tsvetkov Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:38 am
                                                      Re: Part 2 T. Poppins Tue Oct 31, 2017 3:45 am
                                                            Re: Part 2 T. Poppins Tue Oct 31, 2017 5:30 am
                                                                  Re: Part 2 Lyudmil Tsvetkov Wed Nov 01, 2017 6:33 am
                                                            Re: Part 2 Lyudmil Tsvetkov Tue Oct 31, 2017 5:39 am
      Re: Human versus Machine Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:01 pm
            Mean reviewers Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:41 am
                  Re: Mean reviewers Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:43 am
            Re: Human versus Machine duncan roberts Sun Nov 26, 2017 1:42 am
                  Re: Human versus Machine Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sun Nov 26, 2017 5:14 am
                        Re: Human versus Machine Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sun Nov 26, 2017 8:59 pm
                              Re: Human versus Machine Edsel Apostol Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:54 am
                                    Re: Human versus Machine Jean Baptiste Mon Nov 27, 2017 9:04 am
                                          Re: Human versus Machine Lyudmil Tsvetkov Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:15 pm
                                    Re: Human versus Machine Lyudmil Tsvetkov Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:13 pm
                                          Re: Human versus Machine Henk van den Belt Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:59 am
                                                Re: Human versus Machine Lyudmil Tsvetkov Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:25 pm
                                                Re: Human versus Machine Larry Kaufman Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:11 pm
                                                      Re: Human versus Machine Lyudmil Tsvetkov Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:55 pm
                                                      Re: Human versus Machine Milos Stanisavljevic Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:35 pm
                                                            Re: Human versus Machine Guenther Simon Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:22 pm
                                                                  Re: Human versus Machine Milos Stanisavljevic Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:44 pm
                                                                        Re: Human versus Machine Lyudmil Tsvetkov Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:33 pm
                                                                              Re: Human versus Machine Larry Kaufman Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:11 am
                                                                                    Re: Human versus Machine Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Dec 02, 2017 3:40 pm
      Part III Lyudmil Tsvetkov Fri Nov 24, 2017 5:50 am
            Re: Part III Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Nov 25, 2017 5:13 am
                  Re: Part III Lyudmil Tsvetkov Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:02 am
                        Re: Part III Lyudmil Tsvetkov Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:29 pm
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