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Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess
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Daniel Shawul



Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 3228
Location: Ethiopia

PostPost subject: Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess    Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:15 am Reply to topic Reply with quote

Uri Blass wrote:
Daniel Shawul wrote:
Most of us here suspected that this could happen once Giraffe showed it can beat Stockfish's eval.

Just the fact that the new approch to chess programming worked incredibly well is fantastic even if it didn't beat the best.

Daniel



How do you decide that giraffe's evaluation is better than stockfish?
If the definition is by using fixed number of nodes with the same search function then having a better evaluation than stockfish is easy if you do not care about time.

Evaluation is basically a function that take a position and return a number.

In this case I can define the evaluation of the position to be the result of the search of stockfish when it searches 20 plies forward.

I am sure this evaluation is better than stockfish's evaluation and can beat stockfish's evaluation when you search the same number of nodes(of course you do not count the nodes that you search to calculate the evaluation because they are defined to be part of the evaluation).

Uri


Static evaluation is something done without a lookahead search. Ofcourse, any defintion is right and you can call a 20 plies search evaluation but it doesn't matter as long as improving the eval doesn't bring additional strength (in your example it would be a 21+ plies search Smile )

Evaluation in the AlphaGo Zero and AlphaZero is just an evaluation of a deep NN. This wasn't the case with AlphaGo Lee because there they used a combination of an evaluation of a deep NN and playout (rollouts), which are just random games played from the position.

The upper parts of the tree are stored in memory in a MCTS where the moves are selected again with a NN (policy NN). An alpha-beta with LMR + nullmove is probably close to MCTS.

I think the mistake I made when testing MCTS for chess few years ago was that I did the evalution with only rollouts -- and this is very hard to get right with all the tactics in chess. I think now I would have been better off using a standard static eval and converting the score to 1,0,-1 by a logistic function.

Daniel
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Subject Author Date/Time
Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Peter Kappler Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:10 am
      Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Ray Banks Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:18 am
            Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Fabien Letouzey Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:31 am
                  Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Xavier Combelle Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:21 am
                        Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Rémi Coulom Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:36 pm
                              Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Marco Costalba Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:50 pm
                              Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Michel Van den Bergh Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:43 pm
                                    Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Rémi Coulom Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:55 pm
                  Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Srdja Matovic Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:22 am
                        Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Salvatore Giannotti Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:32 am
                              Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Jon Dart Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:13 pm
                                    Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Uri Blass Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:37 am
                                    Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Joerg Oster Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:53 am
                  Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Carl Lumma Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:17 pm
      Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Fulvio Benini Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:31 am
            Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Guenther Simon Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:03 am
            Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Thomas Ewers Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:09 am
            Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Leo Anger Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:51 am
      Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Martin Sedlak Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:32 am
            Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Daniel Shawul Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:05 pm
                  Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Martin Sedlak Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:11 pm
            Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Evgeniy Zheltonozhskiy Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:15 pm
                  Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Martin Sedlak Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:29 pm
                        Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Evgeniy Zheltonozhskiy Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:47 pm
                              Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Jon Dart Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:56 pm
                                    Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Robin Messemer Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:00 pm
                  Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Dann Corbit Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:07 pm
            Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Leo Anger Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:53 am
            Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Rein Halbersma Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:49 am
                  Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Robin Messemer Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:52 pm
                  Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess szabo, robert Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:47 pm
                        Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Stefano Gemma Sat Dec 09, 2017 1:53 pm
                              Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Robin Messemer Sat Dec 09, 2017 4:05 pm
                                    Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Brian Richardson Sat Dec 09, 2017 4:25 pm
                                          Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Henk van den Belt Sat Dec 09, 2017 5:01 pm
                                                Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Brian Richardson Sat Dec 09, 2017 10:28 pm
                                                      Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Henk van den Belt Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:23 am
                                                            Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Robin Messemer Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:51 am
                                                                  Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Henk van den Belt Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:59 am
                                          Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Robin Messemer Sat Dec 09, 2017 7:15 pm
      Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Daniel Shawul Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:03 pm
            Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Uri Blass Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:42 pm
                  Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Daniel Shawul Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:15 am
      Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Jonathan Rosenthal Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:57 pm
      Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Henk van den Belt Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:03 pm
            Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Carl Lumma Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:06 pm
            Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Evgeniy Zheltonozhskiy Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:51 am
            Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Henk van den Belt Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:46 am
      Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Ronald de Man Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:25 pm
            Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Robin Messemer Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:32 pm
                  Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Ronald de Man Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:52 pm
                        Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Milos Stanisavljevic Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:38 pm
                              Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Ronald de Man Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:24 am
                                    Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Milos Stanisavljevic Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:29 am
                                    Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Robin Messemer Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:47 am
                                          Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Ronald de Man Sun Dec 10, 2017 3:38 am
                                                Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Álvaro Begué Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:05 am
                                                      Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Dan Ellwein Sun Dec 10, 2017 6:29 am
                                                      Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Ronald de Man Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:18 pm
                                                            Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Robin Messemer Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:01 pm
                                                                  Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Ronald de Man Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:34 pm
                                                                        Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Jesse Gersenson Sun Dec 10, 2017 3:08 pm
                                                                              Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess J. B. Buijs Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:13 pm
                                                                                    Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Robin Messemer Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:29 pm
                                                                                          Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess J. B. Buijs Sun Dec 10, 2017 5:24 pm
                                                                                          Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Henk van den Belt Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:30 pm
                                                                                          Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Milos Stanisavljevic Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:41 pm
                                                                        Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Milos Stanisavljevic Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:28 pm
                                                Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess H.G.Muller Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:39 pm
                                                      Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Milos Stanisavljevic Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:45 pm
                                                            Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Albert Silver Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:28 pm
                                                      Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Robin Messemer Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:09 pm
                                                            Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess H.G.Muller Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:19 pm
                                                                  Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Michel Van den Bergh Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:29 pm
                                                                        Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Robin Messemer Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:25 pm
                                                                              Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Sven Schüle Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:11 pm
                                                                                    Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Robin Messemer Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:46 pm
                                                                                    Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Ronald de Man Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:59 pm
                                                                                          Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Robin Messemer Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:30 pm
                                                                                          Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Ronald de Man Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:55 pm
                                                                                          Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Robin Messemer Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:58 pm
                                                                                          Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Luis Babboni Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:53 am
                                                                                    Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess H.G.Muller Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:00 pm
                                                                                          Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Rein Halbersma Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:18 pm
                                                                                          Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Álvaro Begué Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:25 pm
                                                                                          Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess H.G.Muller Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:01 pm
                                                                                          Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Robin Messemer Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:16 pm
                                                                                          Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess H.G.Muller Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:58 am
                                                                                          Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Michel Van den Bergh Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:16 am
                                                                                          Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess H.G.Muller Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:54 am
                                                                                          Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Rein Halbersma Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:35 am
                                                                                          Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess H.G.Muller Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:59 am
                                                                                          Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Rein Halbersma Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:41 pm
                                                                                          Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess H.G.Muller Tue Dec 12, 2017 2:28 pm
                                                                                          Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Rein Halbersma Tue Dec 12, 2017 2:48 pm
                                                                                          Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess H.G.Muller Tue Dec 12, 2017 4:58 pm
                                                                                          Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Michel Van den Bergh Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:18 pm
                                                                                          Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess H.G.Muller Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:32 pm
                                                                                          Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Michel Van den Bergh Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:45 pm
                                                                                          Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Ronald de Man Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:58 pm
                                                                                          Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Ronald de Man Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:07 pm
                                                                                          Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Robin Messemer Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:22 pm
                                                                                          Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Ronald de Man Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:00 am
                                                                                          Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Milos Stanisavljevic Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:37 am
                                                                                          Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess H.G.Muller Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:48 pm
                                                                                          Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Ronald de Man Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:38 pm
                                                                                          Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Daniel Shawul Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:54 pm
                                                                                          Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Milos Stanisavljevic Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:16 pm
                                                                                          Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Robin Messemer Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:27 pm
                                                                                          Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Milos Stanisavljevic Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:32 pm
                                                                                          Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Robin Messemer Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:50 pm
                                                                                          Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Milos Stanisavljevic Wed Dec 13, 2017 3:46 pm
                                                                                          Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Milos Stanisavljevic Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:35 pm
                                                                                          Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Ronald de Man Wed Dec 13, 2017 8:36 pm
                                                                                          Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Milos Stanisavljevic Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:50 am
                                                                                          Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Nicu Ionita Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:16 pm
                                                                                          Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Richard Delorme Tue Dec 12, 2017 2:17 pm
                                                                                          Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess J. B. Buijs Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:31 pm
      Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Henk van den Belt Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:16 pm
            Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Robin Messemer Wed Dec 13, 2017 6:07 pm
                  Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Álvaro Begué Wed Dec 13, 2017 6:18 pm
                  Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess H.G.Muller Wed Dec 13, 2017 6:18 pm
                        Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Truls Edvard Stokke Wed Dec 13, 2017 6:31 pm
                              Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Milos Stanisavljevic Wed Dec 13, 2017 7:41 pm
                                    Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Robin Messemer Wed Dec 13, 2017 7:48 pm
                                          Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Milos Stanisavljevic Wed Dec 13, 2017 8:43 pm
                                                Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Robin Messemer Wed Dec 13, 2017 8:51 pm
                                                      Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Milos Stanisavljevic Wed Dec 13, 2017 9:23 pm
                                                            Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Robin Messemer Wed Dec 13, 2017 9:28 pm
                                                                  Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Milos Stanisavljevic Wed Dec 13, 2017 9:58 pm
                                                                        Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Robin Messemer Wed Dec 13, 2017 10:06 pm
                                                                              Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Milos Stanisavljevic Wed Dec 13, 2017 10:15 pm
                                                                                    Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess H.G.Muller Wed Dec 13, 2017 10:41 pm
                                                                                          Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Robin Messemer Wed Dec 13, 2017 10:51 pm
                                                                                          Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess H.G.Muller Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:12 am
                                                                                          Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Pio Korinth Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:47 am
                                                                                          Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Truls Edvard Stokke Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:18 pm
                                                                                          Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Milos Stanisavljevic Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:33 pm
                                    Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Álvaro Begué Wed Dec 13, 2017 8:19 pm
                                          Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Milos Stanisavljevic Wed Dec 13, 2017 8:57 pm
                                                Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Álvaro Begué Wed Dec 13, 2017 9:19 pm
                                                      Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Milos Stanisavljevic Wed Dec 13, 2017 9:24 pm
                                    Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Truls Edvard Stokke Wed Dec 13, 2017 10:38 pm
                                          Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Milos Stanisavljevic Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:00 pm
                                                Re: Google's AlphaGo team has been working on chess Truls Edvard Stokke Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:09 pm
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