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Historic Milestone: AlphaZero
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Lyudmil Tsvetkov



Joined: 12 Jun 2012
Posts: 5806

PostPost subject: Re: MCTS-NN vs alpha-beta    Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:17 pm Reply to topic Reply with quote

MikeGL wrote:
Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:
MikeGL wrote:
kranium wrote:
Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:
It is not at all clear to me where were books used and where not.


I'm sure opening books were not used...
In the early self-play games things like 1.a3, 1.a4, etc. were probably tried by AlphaZero...
eventually it learned that 1. e4 or 1. d4 had the highest success rates.


Books or no books, I think AlphaZero would still demolish SF8.
Just look at this game 9, it was a decent French Defence by SF8, but it was dismantled with
amazing tactical and strategic shots by AlphaZero which seems to be beyond the reach of alpha-beta engines.


[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2017.12.06"]
[Round "9"]
[White "AlphaZero"]
[Black "Stockfish"]
[Result "1-0"]
[TimeControl "40/1260:300"]
[Termination "normal"]
[PlyCount "103"]
[WhiteType "human"]
[BlackType "human"]

1. d4 e6 2. e4 d5 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. e5 Nfd7 5. f4 c5 6. Nf3 cxd4 7. Nb5 Bb4+ 8.
Bd2 Bc5 9. b4 Be7 10. Nbxd4 Nc6 11. c3 a5 12. b5 Nxd4 13. cxd4 Nb6 14. a4
Nc4 15. Bd3 Nxd2 16. Kxd2 Bd7 17. Ke3 b6 18. g4 h5 19. Qg1 hxg4 20. Qxg4
Bf8 21. h4 Qe7 22. Rhc1 g6 23. Rc2 Kd8 24. Rac1 Qe8 25. Rc7 Rc8 26. Rxc8+
Bxc8 27. Rc6 Bb7 28. Rc2 Kd7 29. Ng5 Be7 30. Bxg6 Bxg5 31. Qxg5 fxg6 32. f5
Rg8 33. Qh6 Qf7 34. f6 Kd8 35. Kd2 Kd7 36. Rc1 Kd8 37. Qe3 Qf8 38. Qc3 Qb4
39. Qxb4 axb4 40. Rg1 b3 41. Kc3 Bc8 42. Kxb3 Bd7 43. Kb4 Be8 44. Ra1 Kc7
45. a5 Bd7 46. axb6+ Kxb6 47. Ra6+ Kb7 48. Kc5 Rd8 49. Ra2 Rc8+ 50. Kd6 Be8
51. Ke7 g5 52. hxg5 1-0


not sure if 18.g4!, 30.Bxg6! and other would be found by current engines.

[d]r2qk2r/3bbppp/1p2p3/pP1pP3/P2P1P2/3BKN2/6PP/R2Q3R w kq - 0 18
BR ::    BQ BK ::    BR
::    :: BB BB BP BP BP
   BP    :: BP ::    ::
BP WP :: BP WP    ::    
WP ::    WP    WP    ::
::    :: WB WK WN ::    
   ::    ::    :: WP WP
WR    :: WQ ::    :: WR

After 17...b6 of black, can some engine consider 18.g4! in this position?



xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[d]4q2r/1b1kbp2/1p2p1p1/pP1pP1N1/P2P1PQP/3BK3/2R5/8 w - - 6 30
   ::    :: BQ ::    BR
:: BB :: BK BB BP ::    
   BP    :: BP :: BP ::
BP WP :: BP WP    WN    
WP ::    WP    WP WQ WP
::    :: WB WK    ::    
   :: WR ::    ::    ::
::    ::    ::    ::    

After 29...Be7, can current engines consider 30.Bxg6! here?


Would be nice if we can try to feed some difficult epd positions into AlphaZero,
to estimate its ELO strength.


I am considering g4 and Bg6, especially g4 was my first choice in under a second.
People don't believe frequently advanced long chains are stronger than a pice, but see what happens here...

I guess the main fault is thay are testing at 1 minute. Long chains have failed in SF at least 5 times or so, and still they are an extremely valid concept.

Books are important, as I have been correctly claiming for a very long time, the French is dangerous or even lost, but people have hard ears.
The game was lost much earlier, already in the opening.


LOL there goes your rediculous claims again. You haven't claimed French is lost. Lets be
honest please, you only claimed French WINAWER is lost, nothing else.
You claimed all other variations of French are playable but not the WINAWER line.

Winawer discussion was a thread on its own, I remember clearly.


Come on, we had to choose a more precise variation, in order to test it in a game.
The structure of the Advanced and the Winaver/McCutcheon/Classical, etc., is the same, white has a central e5 pawn, which e7-e6 has allowed, and a lot more space.

Anyway, those are just weak engines to assess anything. Perfect play is at 5000-6000 elos at least, and that Alpha will never progress much.
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Display posts from previous:   
Subject Author Date/Time
Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Miguel Castanuela Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:39 am
      Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Gary Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:18 am
      Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Jean Baptiste Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:33 am
            Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero duncan roberts Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:36 am
      Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Gary Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:16 am
            Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Jean Baptiste Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:25 am
            Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Jean Baptiste Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:33 am
            Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Peter Martan Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:24 am
                  Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Jouni Uski Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:51 am
                        Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Srdja Matovic Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:06 am
                              Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Milos Stanisavljevic Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:03 am
                                    Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Srdja Matovic Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:35 am
                                          Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Milos Stanisavljevic Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:50 pm
                                                Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Srdja Matovic Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:53 pm
                        Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Lyudmil Tsvetkov Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:38 pm
                        Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Dan Cooper Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:34 pm
                  Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Mike Libanan Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:20 pm
            Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Lyudmil Tsvetkov Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:34 pm
      Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero AA Ross Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:33 am
            Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Jean Baptiste Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:40 am
                  Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Jean Baptiste Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:43 am
                        Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Jean Baptiste Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:47 am
                              Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Jean Baptiste Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:52 am
                                    Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Jean Baptiste Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:54 am
                                          Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Jean Baptiste Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:57 am
                                                Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Jean Baptiste Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:59 am
                                                      Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Jean Baptiste Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:01 am
                                                            Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Peter Martan Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:05 am
                                                                  Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Jean Baptiste Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:13 am
                              Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Michael B Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:36 am
                                    Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Michael B Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:51 am
                                          Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Albert Silver Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:29 am
                                    Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Mike Libanan Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:33 am
                                          Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Michael B Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:12 am
                                                Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Mike Libanan Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:17 am
            Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Leo Anger Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:18 am
      Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Srdja Matovic Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:10 am
      Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Vincent Lejeune Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:23 am
            Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Vincent Lejeune Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:18 am
                  Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Guenther Simon Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:27 am
                        Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Guenther Simon Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:51 am
                              Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Erin Dame Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:29 am
                              Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Vincent Lejeune Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:37 am
                                    Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Guenther Simon Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:05 pm
                                          Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Vincent Lejeune Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:39 pm
                                          Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Oleg Smirnov Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:40 pm
                                          Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Vincent Lejeune Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:55 pm
                              Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Norman Schmidt Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:26 pm
                        Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Vincent Lejeune Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:16 am
                              Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Mel Cooper Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:45 am
                              Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Lyudmil Tsvetkov Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:51 pm
      Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Steve Maughan Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:00 pm
            Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Lyudmil Tsvetkov Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:05 pm
      Much weaker than Stockfish Lyudmil Tsvetkov Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:18 pm
            Re: Much weaker than Stockfish Mike Libanan Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:36 pm
            Re: Much weaker than Stockfish Mike Libanan Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:16 pm
                  Re: Much weaker than Stockfish Milos Stanisavljevic Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:24 pm
                        Re: Much weaker than Stockfish Mike Libanan Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:29 pm
                              Re: Much weaker than Stockfish Lyudmil Tsvetkov Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:54 pm
                  Re: Much weaker than Stockfish Lyudmil Tsvetkov Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:34 pm
                        Re: Much weaker than Stockfish Mike Libanan Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:47 pm
                              Re: Much weaker than Stockfish Lyudmil Tsvetkov Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:02 pm
                                    Re: Much weaker than Stockfish Norman Schmidt Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:37 pm
                                          Re: Much weaker than Stockfish Joseph Ellis Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:50 pm
                                                Re: Much weaker than Stockfish Milos Stanisavljevic Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:55 pm
                                                      Re: Much weaker than Stockfish Joseph Ellis Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:01 pm
                                          Re: Much weaker than Stockfish Lyudmil Tsvetkov Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:21 pm
                                          Re: MCTS-NN vs alpha-beta Mike Libanan Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:59 am
                                                Re: MCTS-NN vs alpha-beta Lyudmil Antonov Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:04 am
                                                      Re: MCTS-NN vs alpha-beta Ed Schroder Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:16 am
                                                            Re: MCTS-NN vs alpha-beta Albert Silver Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:34 pm
                                                                  Re: MCTS-NN vs alpha-beta Milos Stanisavljevic Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:38 pm
                                                                        Re: MCTS-NN vs alpha-beta Albert Silver Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:41 pm
                                                                  Re: MCTS-NN vs alpha-beta Daniel Shawul Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:53 pm
                                                                  Re: MCTS-NN vs alpha-beta Leo Anger Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:15 pm
                                                                  Re: MCTS-NN vs alpha-beta szabo, robert Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:27 pm
                                                                        Re:Alpha Zero's "Phantom Win over Stockfish 8" AA Ross Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:33 pm
                                                                              Re:Alpha Zero's "Phantom Win over Stockfish 8" Jouni Uski Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:44 pm
                                                                                    Re:Alpha Zero's "Phantom Win over Stockfish 8" Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Dec 09, 2017 2:55 pm
                                                                              Re:Alpha Zero's "Phantom Win over Stockfish 8" Leo Anger Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:23 pm
                                                                        Re: MCTS-NN vs alpha-beta Robin Messemer Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:41 pm
                                                                        Re: MCTS-NN vs alpha-beta Albert Silver Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:18 pm
                                                Re: MCTS-NN vs alpha-beta Lyudmil Tsvetkov Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:43 pm
                                                      Re: MCTS-NN vs alpha-beta Mike Libanan Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:49 pm
                                                            Re: MCTS-NN vs alpha-beta Lyudmil Tsvetkov Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:17 pm
                                                Re: MCTS-NN vs alpha-beta Hermann Krause Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:00 pm
                                                      Re: MCTS-NN vs alpha-beta Mike Libanan Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:18 pm
                                                            Re: MCTS-NN vs alpha-beta Hermann Krause Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:32 pm
                                                                  Re: MCTS-NN vs alpha-beta Mike Libanan Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:35 pm
                                                                        Re: MCTS-NN vs alpha-beta Hermann Krause Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:45 pm
                                                                              Re: MCTS-NN vs alpha-beta Hermann Krause Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:42 pm
                                                      Re: MCTS-NN vs alpha-beta Lyudmil Tsvetkov Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:19 pm
                                                Re: MCTS-NN vs alpha-beta Michael B Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:59 am
                                                      Re: MCTS-NN vs alpha-beta Milos Stanisavljevic Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:54 am
                                                            Re: MCTS-NN vs alpha-beta Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:00 pm
                                    Re: Much weaker than Stockfish Mike Libanan Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:58 pm
                                          Re: Much weaker than Stockfish Lyudmil Tsvetkov Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:26 pm
                                                Re: Much weaker than Stockfish Mike Libanan Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:56 pm
                                                      Re: Much weaker than Stockfish Anil V Dharan Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:26 pm
                                                            Re: Much weaker than Stockfish Lyudmil Tsvetkov Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:23 pm
                                                      Re: Much weaker than Stockfish Lyudmil Tsvetkov Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:16 pm
                                                            Re: Much weaker than Stockfish Mike Libanan Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:18 am
                                                                  Re: Much weaker than Stockfish Lyudmil Tsvetkov Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:49 pm
                                                                        Re: Much weaker than Stockfish Mike Libanan Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:55 pm
                                                                              Re: Much weaker than Stockfish Lyudmil Tsvetkov Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:19 pm
                                                                                    Re: Much weaker than Stockfish Norman Schmidt Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:25 pm
                                                                                    Re: Much weaker than Stockfish Mike Libanan Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:22 am
                        Re: Much weaker than Stockfish Lyudmil Tsvetkov Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:48 pm
                              Re: Much weaker than Stockfish Kenneth Regan Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:04 am
                                    Re: Much weaker than Stockfish M ANSARI Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:47 am
                                          Re: Much weaker than Stockfish Lyudmil Tsvetkov Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:01 pm
                                    Re: Much weaker than Stockfish Lyudmil Tsvetkov Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:58 pm
                                          Re: Much weaker than Stockfish Mike Libanan Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:28 pm
                                                Re: Much weaker than Stockfish Lyudmil Tsvetkov Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:34 pm
            Re: Much weaker than Stockfish fernando Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:53 pm
                  Re: Much weaker than Stockfish Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:05 pm
      Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Joachim Rang Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:54 pm
            Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Jon Dart Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:00 pm
                  Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Lyudmil Tsvetkov Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:08 pm
                        Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Jon Dart Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:16 pm
                        Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Lyudmil Tsvetkov Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:28 pm
                              Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Jon Dart Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:34 pm
                                    Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Lyudmil Tsvetkov Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:59 pm
                                          Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Jean Baptiste Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:58 pm
                                                Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Lyudmil Tsvetkov Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:33 pm
                                                      Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Lyudmil Tsvetkov Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:36 pm
                              Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Miguel Castanuela Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:28 pm
                                    Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Lyudmil Tsvetkov Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:06 pm
                                          Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Peer Trunz Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:13 pm
                                                Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Lyudmil Tsvetkov Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:37 pm
      Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Henk van den Belt Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:57 pm
      Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Ian Osgood Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:34 am
            Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Lyudmil Tsvetkov Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:08 pm
      Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Greg Simpson Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:22 am
            Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Mike Libanan Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:38 am
      Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero szabo, robert Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:54 am
            Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Carl Bicknell Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:50 am
                  Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Milos Stanisavljevic Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:49 pm
                        Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Bigler Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:56 pm
                              Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Leo Anger Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:53 pm
                        Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Jouni Uski Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:59 pm
                              Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Bigler Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:00 pm
                              Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Kai Laskos Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:38 pm
                                    Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Leo Anger Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:43 pm
                                          Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:10 pm
                                    Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:07 pm
                                          Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:08 pm
                              Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:03 pm
            Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Lyudmil Tsvetkov Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:10 pm
            Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Ian Osgood Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:57 pm
                  Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:12 pm
                        Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Erin Dame Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:37 pm
                              Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Anil V Dharan Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:25 am
      Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero duncan roberts Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:39 am
            Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Lyudmil Tsvetkov Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:12 pm
                  Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero duncan roberts Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:55 pm
      Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero fernando Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:47 pm
            Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Albert Silver Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:53 pm
            Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Kai Laskos Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:59 pm
                  Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Carl Lumma Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:03 am
                        Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Carl Lumma Fri Dec 08, 2017 4:02 am
                              Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Jean Baptiste Fri Dec 08, 2017 5:00 am
                                    Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Jhor A. Vi Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:33 am
                                          Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Anil V Dharan Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:52 am
                                                Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:16 pm
                                          Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Nay Lin Tun Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:08 am
                                                Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Anil V Dharan Fri Dec 08, 2017 5:31 pm
                        Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero Carl Lumma Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:57 pm
                              Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero T. Poppins Sat Dec 09, 2017 7:51 am
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