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Norman Schmidt

Joined: 29 May 2008
Posts: 1755

Post subject: Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better    Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:27 pm

Milos wrote:
 kranium wrote: No human games were loaded. Learning was accomplished thru millions of self-play games The monte carlo search algorithm simply chose the move in each position with the highest win probability.

How do you explain these paragraphs from the paper:
 Quote: "Training proceeded for 700,000 steps (mini-batches of size 4,096) starting from randomly initialised parameters" "We represent the policy π(a|s) by a 8 × 8 × 73 stack of planes encoding a probability distribution over 4,672 possible moves. Each of the 8×8 positions identiﬁes the square from which to “pick up” a piece." "The number of games, positions, and thinking time varied per game due largely to different board sizes and game lengths, and are shown in Table S3."

So when playing self-played games positions used for training are taken from the games randomly (since position is part of set of training parameters). So what about starting positions of those 44 million training games? You think they were all random, or initial starting position and they had no chess knowledge in them????
Give me a break, thinking those ppl in Google are so stupid to train their network in such a lousy way, instead of sorting those 100'000 openings from the same chessbase they quote in the paper by probability of occurrence and using those statistics as starting positions for those self-played games.
Ofc in Table 2 they nicely show just percentages not actual numbers so you can't judge how many training games in total were from the starting position, because someone could be smart and sum up all those games from Table 2 and figure the number doesn't match 44 million...

Btw. 700'000 training iterations times 800 MTCS is already 56 million, not 44, so where did 12 million games disappear?

My understanding is that "randomly initialised parameters" is not the same as loading human games.

Yes I assume (because it has not been made clear by Google) that the self-play games all started from the traditional start position.
AlphaZero would quickly realize that it was winning more often after 1. d4 than after 1. f3 for ex.
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Subject Author Date/Time
Michael Sherwin Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:45 am
Richard Delorme Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:16 pm
Michael Sherwin Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:29 pm
Norman Schmidt Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:26 pm
Norman Schmidt Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:34 pm
John Hartmann Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:40 pm
Norman Schmidt Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:00 pm
szabo, robert Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:58 pm
Milos Stanisavljevic Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:50 pm
Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Norman Schmidt Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:27 pm
Milos Stanisavljevic Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:42 pm
Norman Schmidt Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:57 pm
Milos Stanisavljevic Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:07 pm
Jacob Wilkins Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:42 pm
Milos Stanisavljevic Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:47 pm
Jacob Wilkins Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:52 pm
Milos Stanisavljevic Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:03 pm
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Steve Maughan Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:43 pm
Michael Sherwin Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:22 pm
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szabo, robert Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:15 am
Michael Sherwin Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:18 am
Werner Schüle Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:48 pm
Michael Sherwin Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:44 pm
Michael Sherwin Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:25 pm
szabo, robert Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:40 pm
Michael Sherwin Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:07 pm
szabo, robert Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:29 pm
Michael Sherwin Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:04 am
szabo, robert Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:25 am
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Michael Sherwin Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:57 pm
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Uri Blass Tue Dec 12, 2017 3:14 pm
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