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AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better
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Norman Schmidt



Joined: 29 May 2008
Posts: 1750

PostPost subject: Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better    Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:27 pm Reply to topic Reply with quote

Milos wrote:
kranium wrote:
No human games were loaded. Learning was accomplished thru millions of self-play games
The monte carlo search algorithm simply chose the move in each position with the highest win probability.

How do you explain these paragraphs from the paper:
Quote:
"Training proceeded for 700,000 steps (mini-batches of size 4,096) starting from randomly initialised parameters"

"We represent the policy π(a|s) by a 8 × 8 × 73 stack of planes encoding a probability distribution over 4,672 possible moves. Each of the 8×8 positions identifies the square from which to “pick up” a piece."

"The number of games, positions, and thinking time varied per game due largely to different board sizes and game lengths, and are shown in Table S3."


So when playing self-played games positions used for training are taken from the games randomly (since position is part of set of training parameters). So what about starting positions of those 44 million training games? You think they were all random, or initial starting position and they had no chess knowledge in them????
Give me a break, thinking those ppl in Google are so stupid to train their network in such a lousy way, instead of sorting those 100'000 openings from the same chessbase they quote in the paper by probability of occurrence and using those statistics as starting positions for those self-played games.
Ofc in Table 2 they nicely show just percentages not actual numbers so you can't judge how many training games in total were from the starting position, because someone could be smart and sum up all those games from Table 2 and figure the number doesn't match 44 million...

Btw. 700'000 training iterations times 800 MTCS is already 56 million, not 44, so where did 12 million games disappear?


My understanding is that "randomly initialised parameters" is not the same as loading human games.

Yes I assume (because it has not been made clear by Google) that the self-play games all started from the traditional start position.
AlphaZero would quickly realize that it was winning more often after 1. d4 than after 1. f3 for ex.
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Subject Author Date/Time
AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Michael Sherwin Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:45 am
      Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Richard Delorme Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:16 pm
            Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Michael Sherwin Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:29 pm
                  Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Norman Schmidt Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:26 pm
                        Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Norman Schmidt Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:34 pm
                              Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better John Hartmann Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:40 pm
                                    Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Norman Schmidt Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:00 pm
                              Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better szabo, robert Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:58 pm
                        Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Milos Stanisavljevic Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:50 pm
                              Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Norman Schmidt Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:27 pm
                                    Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Milos Stanisavljevic Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:42 pm
                                          Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Norman Schmidt Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:57 pm
                                                Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Milos Stanisavljevic Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:07 pm
                                                      Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Jacob Wilkins Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:42 pm
                                                            Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Milos Stanisavljevic Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:47 pm
                                                                  Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Jacob Wilkins Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:52 pm
                                                                        Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Milos Stanisavljevic Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:03 pm
                                                                              Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Jacob Wilkins Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:10 pm
      Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Steve Maughan Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:43 pm
            Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Michael Sherwin Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:22 pm
      Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Jon Dart Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:12 pm
            Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Michael Sherwin Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:58 pm
                  Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better szabo, robert Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:15 am
                        Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Michael Sherwin Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:18 am
                              Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Werner Schüle Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:48 pm
                                    Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Michael Sherwin Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:44 pm
                                          Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Michael Sherwin Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:25 pm
                              Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better szabo, robert Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:40 pm
                                    Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Michael Sherwin Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:07 pm
                                          Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better szabo, robert Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:29 pm
                                                Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Michael Sherwin Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:04 am
                                                      Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better szabo, robert Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:25 am
                                                            Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Ian Osgood Sat Dec 09, 2017 4:03 pm
      Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Rodolfo Leoni Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:34 pm
            Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Michael Sherwin Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:57 pm
                  Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Rodolfo Leoni Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:50 am
                        Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Michael Sherwin Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:12 pm
                              Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Rodolfo Leoni Sun Dec 10, 2017 2:32 pm
      Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Daniel Shawul Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:47 pm
            Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Michael Sherwin Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:23 am
                  Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Michael Sherwin Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:54 am
                  Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Erin Dame Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:43 am
                        Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Michael Sherwin Sat Dec 09, 2017 4:56 am
                              Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Erin Dame Sat Dec 09, 2017 8:39 am
                                    Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Michael Sherwin Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:35 am
                                          Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Erin Dame Sat Dec 09, 2017 10:07 am
                                          Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better John Rebert Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:15 am
                                                Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better szabo, robert Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:49 am
                                                Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Michael Sherwin Sat Dec 09, 2017 5:44 pm
                                                      Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Erin Dame Sat Dec 09, 2017 5:52 pm
                                                            Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Michael Sherwin Sat Dec 09, 2017 6:36 pm
                                                                  Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Erin Dame Sat Dec 09, 2017 6:40 pm
                                                                        Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better John Rebert Sat Dec 09, 2017 8:05 pm
                                                                              Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Robin Messemer Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:37 pm
                                          Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Erin Dame Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:38 pm
                  Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better szabo, robert Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:39 am
                        Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better John Rebert Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:46 am
                              Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better szabo, robert Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:02 pm
                                    Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better John Rebert Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:14 pm
                                          Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better szabo, robert Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:59 pm
                        Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Michael Sherwin Sat Dec 09, 2017 5:49 pm
      Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Aloisio Ponti Sun Dec 10, 2017 5:36 pm
      Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Michael Pang Sun Dec 10, 2017 9:24 pm
            Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Rodolfo Leoni Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:15 pm
                  Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Carl Langan Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:13 am
                        Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Rodolfo Leoni Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:24 pm
                  Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Michael Sherwin Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:58 am
                        Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Rodolfo Leoni Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:33 pm
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