ChessUSA.com TalkChess.com
Hosted by Your Move Chess & Games
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions.
Post new topic    TalkChess.com Forum Index -> Computer Chess Club: General Topics Flat
View previous topic :: View next topic  

Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions.
The time per move and hardware etc was fair.
51%
 51%  [ 27 ]
Google set it up to give Alpha Zero an edge.
48%
 48%  [ 25 ]
Voted : 52
Total Votes : 52
- Poll expired -

Author Message
Milos Stanisavljevic



Joined: 25 Nov 2009
Posts: 2474

PostPost subject: Re: Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions.    Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:23 pm Reply to topic Reply with quote

Branko Radovanovic wrote:
Why do you think SF should have played with an opening book and an EGTB? AlphaZero had none. As I gather, it used actual computation to play all its moves, rather than relying on instant lookup.

Alpha0 opening book is actually already stored in its network weights. It would most probably played weaker if you forced it to play from a real opening book.

Quote:
SF surely lost 20-30 Elo at least due to fixed move time, but given the fact that AlphaZero itself played under the same conditions, there is no reason to believe the outcome would have been any different even with dynamic time management given to both sides. (Actually, if there is any mention of AlphaZero's time management in the paper, I've missed it.)

That's a bad excuse. If Google didn't have time or know how to optimally implement time management, there is no reason to handicap other engine.
Moreover, not going into too much details, classical engine time management is more complex because of the nature of alpha-beta search, when failed high/low engine simply needs much more time to do the research of a position. This is not the case with MCTS.

Quote:
AlphaZero's hardware is better described as novel than specialized. There is no doubt it will become commonplace, perhaps in a matter of years, while FPGAs will remain exotic, however powerful and energy-efficient they might be.

That is not actually true. BTU that google is exclusively using is much more exotic than anything that exists. FPGAs are quite common and used.
What lacks is actually engineers who could use them efficiently.
Everyone today can learn to make some deep learning in Python in few hour following a YouTube course. Learning how to efficiently trranslate C++ to FPGA takes years. That's the main difference.

Quote:
If I had to name just one reason why AlphaZero playing chess the way it plays is a monumental achievement, it is this: in the chapter title "Anatomy of a Computer Chess Program" the authors list a number of computer chess techniques (alpha-beta search, material imbalance tables, PSQT, mobility, pawn structure eval, king safety, QS, pruning, extensions, history, SEE, heuristics, TT, etc.) and conclude AlphaZero uses none of them. Not one. It appears that the only thing SF and AlphaZero have in common is the move generator. That's mind-boggling, and remains mind-boggling even if Google's results do appear to be oversold a bit.

This is all fine, but MCTS is also quite an old concept in chess programming and used since forever in Go and other games (it had also fair share of usage in chess quite some time ago). And Alpha0 without it would be nowhere near to actual performance. So yes the way they organized the features and trained the network is quite novel and certainly a breakthrough, but none of that would have been possible without monstrous hardware and "old" techniques such as MCTS an reinforcement learning (at least 25 years old concept in chess).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Subject Author Date/Time
Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions. Leo Anger Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:15 am
      Re: Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions. Anil V Dharan Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:47 am
            Re: Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions. Lonnie Cook Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:46 pm
      Re: Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions. Graham Banks Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:05 am
            Re: Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions. Roy Brunjes Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:28 am
            Re: Alpha Zero vs Stockfish .. A Bogus Win? AA Ross Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:35 pm
            Re: Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions. Michael B Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:04 am
                  Re: Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions. Robin Messemer Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:25 am
                        Re: Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions. Milos Stanisavljevic Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:37 am
                              Re: Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions. Branko Radovanovic Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:06 pm
                                    Re: Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions. Milos Stanisavljevic Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:29 pm
                                          Re: Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions. Nay Lin Tun Fri Dec 08, 2017 5:21 pm
                                    Re: Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions. Lyudmil Tsvetkov Fri Dec 08, 2017 4:48 pm
                        Re: Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions. Lyudmil Tsvetkov Fri Dec 08, 2017 4:44 pm
            Re: Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions. Carl Lumma Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:44 am
                  Re: Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions. Nay Lin Tun Fri Dec 08, 2017 5:41 am
                        Re: Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions. Anil V Dharan Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:22 am
                        Re: Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions. Uri Blass Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:48 am
                  Re: Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions. Lyudmil Tsvetkov Fri Dec 08, 2017 4:50 pm
            Re: Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions. Nabil Danial Sat Dec 09, 2017 10:55 am
                  Re: Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions. Damir Desevac Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:19 am
                  Re: Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions. Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Dec 09, 2017 2:36 pm
      Re: Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions. Evert Glebbeek Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:57 am
            Re: Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions. stavros atmatzidis Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:53 am
            Re: Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions. Anil V Dharan Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:36 pm
            Re: Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions. stavros atmatzidis Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:52 pm
                  Re: Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions. Leto Atreides Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:24 pm
                        Re: Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions. Lyudmil Tsvetkov Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:05 pm
            Re: Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions. Lyudmil Tsvetkov Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:01 pm
      Re: Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions. Ted Summers Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:58 am
            Re: Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions. stavros atmatzidis Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:14 am
                  Re: Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions. Branko Radovanovic Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:43 pm
                        Re: Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions. Robin Messemer Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:04 pm
                        Re: Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions. Milos Stanisavljevic Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:23 pm
                              Re: Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions. Leo Anger Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:31 pm
                              Re: Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions. Richard Delorme Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:32 pm
                                    Re: Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions. Milos Stanisavljevic Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:54 pm
                              Re: Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions. Branko Radovanovic Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:35 pm
                                    Re: Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions. Milos Stanisavljevic Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:23 pm
                        Re: Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions. stavros atmatzidis Fri Dec 08, 2017 4:13 pm
                  Re: Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions. Lyudmil Tsvetkov Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:08 pm
                        Re: Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions. Milos Stanisavljevic Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:12 pm
                              Re: Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions. Robin Messemer Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:44 pm
                                    Re: Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions. Milos Stanisavljevic Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:05 pm
                                          Re: Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions. Robin Messemer Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:17 pm
                                                Re: Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions. Milos Stanisavljevic Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:26 pm
                                                      Re: Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions. Robin Messemer Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:01 pm
                                                            Re: Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions. Milos Stanisavljevic Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:09 pm
                              Re: Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions. Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Dec 09, 2017 2:39 pm
      Re: Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions. Rasmus Althoff Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:08 pm
            Re: Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions. Milos Stanisavljevic Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:23 pm
                  Re: Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions. Rasmus Althoff Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:03 pm
            Re: Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions. Lyudmil Tsvetkov Fri Dec 08, 2017 4:39 pm
                  Re: Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions. Rasmus Althoff Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:33 pm
                        Re: Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions. Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Dec 09, 2017 2:44 pm
                              Re: Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions. Rasmus Althoff Sat Dec 09, 2017 5:31 pm
                                    Re: Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions. Carl Lumma Sat Dec 09, 2017 5:58 pm
                                          Re: Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions. Ronald de Man Sat Dec 09, 2017 6:25 pm
                                                Re: Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions. Uri Blass Sat Dec 09, 2017 6:35 pm
                                                Re: Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions. Ronald de Man Sat Dec 09, 2017 6:36 pm
                                                      Re: Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions. Jesse Gersenson Sat Dec 09, 2017 8:24 pm
                                                            Re: Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions. Ronald de Man Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:05 pm
                                                                  Re: Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions. Dariusz Orzechowski Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:23 pm
                                                                        Re: Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions. Ronald de Man Sat Dec 09, 2017 10:52 pm
                                                                              Re: Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions. Dariusz Orzechowski Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:43 pm
                                                                                    Re: Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions. Ronald de Man Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:03 am
                                                                                          Re: Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions. Milos Stanisavljevic Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:07 am
                                                                                          Re: Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions. Dariusz Orzechowski Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:50 am
                                                                                          Re: Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions. Ronald de Man Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:13 am
                                                                                          Re: Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions. Milos Stanisavljevic Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:22 am
                                                                                          Re: Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions. Jesse Gersenson Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:21 pm
                                                                                          Re: Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions. Milos Stanisavljevic Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:29 pm
                                                                                          Re: Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions. Robin Messemer Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:55 pm
                                                                                          Re: Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions. Milos Stanisavljevic Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:16 pm
                                                                  Re: Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions. Jesse Gersenson Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:25 pm
                                                                        Re: Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions. Ronald de Man Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:47 pm
                                                                              Re: Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions. Jesse Gersenson Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:01 pm
                                                            Re: Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions. Dan Ellwein Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:02 am
                                                      Re: Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions. Dariusz Orzechowski Sat Dec 09, 2017 8:35 pm
                                          Re: Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions. Uri Blass Sat Dec 09, 2017 6:31 pm
      Re: Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions. Forrest Hoch Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:07 am
            Re: Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions. Lyudmil Tsvetkov Fri Dec 08, 2017 4:40 pm
      Re: Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions. Richard B Riddick Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:21 am
Post new topic    TalkChess.com Forum Index -> Computer Chess Club: General Topics

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum




Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
Enhanced with Moby Threads