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AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better
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Michael Sherwin



Joined: 26 May 2006
Posts: 2795
Location: OH, USA

PostPost subject: Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better    Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:35 am Reply to topic Reply with quote

zenpawn wrote:
Michael Sherwin wrote:
zenpawn wrote:
Michael Sherwin wrote:
That lead me to the conclusion that A0 pretrained for the match against SF or at a minimum loaded and learned against SF games. Some post above seem to verify that observation. I did not read any white papers on A0. I only read some reports by journalist.


My understanding is its training was only via self-play starting from a blank slate, i.e., knowing only the rules.


A quote from one of Milos post.

"When starting from each human opening,
AlphaZero convincingly defeated Stockfish, suggesting that it has indeed mastered a wide spectrum of chess play."

This is evidence of pre match training against SF. How many human opening positions were trained against? Here is more of the quote.

"Finally, we analysed the chess knowledge discovered by AlphaZero. Table 2 analyses the
most common human openings (those played more than 100,000 times in an online database of human chess games"

So we not only have pre match training against SF but they used the most common human played positions to conduct that training.

So my original observation based on my experience with reinforcement learning that they must've used a human database and pre training against SF appears to be quite accurate.


I took those to be games played after the self-play training or at least not used to learn. The thing is called Zero for the very reason that it doesn't start with a database of games.


Then the first quote is a poorly constructed sentence as it clearly says that A0 defeated SF from EACH human opening. The second quote defines what is meant by each human opening. It is every position that occurred at least 100,000 times in a human online database. So my question is, were all those human opening positions covered in the 100 game match? Not even close! So unless the first quote is just poor sentence construction then A0 played training matches from all opening positions that were in an online database 100,000 times or more.

But if you understand that sentence to mean something different then just go with that! But for me it does not change what the sentence actually says. And that is not my fault. They should clarify the issue.
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Subject Author Date/Time
AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Michael Sherwin Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:45 am
      Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Richard Delorme Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:16 pm
            Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Michael Sherwin Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:29 pm
                  Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Norman Schmidt Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:26 pm
                        Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Norman Schmidt Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:34 pm
                              Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better John Hartmann Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:40 pm
                                    Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Norman Schmidt Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:00 pm
                              Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better szabo, robert Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:58 pm
                        Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Milos Stanisavljevic Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:50 pm
                              Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Norman Schmidt Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:27 pm
                                    Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Milos Stanisavljevic Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:42 pm
                                          Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Norman Schmidt Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:57 pm
                                                Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Milos Stanisavljevic Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:07 pm
                                                      Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Jacob Wilkins Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:42 pm
                                                            Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Milos Stanisavljevic Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:47 pm
                                                                  Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Jacob Wilkins Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:52 pm
                                                                        Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Milos Stanisavljevic Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:03 pm
                                                                              Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Jacob Wilkins Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:10 pm
      Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Steve Maughan Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:43 pm
            Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Michael Sherwin Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:22 pm
      Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Jon Dart Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:12 pm
            Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Michael Sherwin Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:58 pm
                  Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better szabo, robert Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:15 am
                        Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Michael Sherwin Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:18 am
                              Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Werner Schüle Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:48 pm
                                    Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Michael Sherwin Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:44 pm
                                          Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Michael Sherwin Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:25 pm
                              Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better szabo, robert Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:40 pm
                                    Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Michael Sherwin Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:07 pm
                                          Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better szabo, robert Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:29 pm
                                                Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Michael Sherwin Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:04 am
                                                      Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better szabo, robert Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:25 am
                                                            Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Ian Osgood Sat Dec 09, 2017 4:03 pm
      Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Rodolfo Leoni Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:34 pm
            Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Michael Sherwin Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:57 pm
                  Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Rodolfo Leoni Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:50 am
                        Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Michael Sherwin Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:12 pm
                              Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Rodolfo Leoni Sun Dec 10, 2017 2:32 pm
      Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Daniel Shawul Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:47 pm
            Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Michael Sherwin Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:23 am
                  Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Michael Sherwin Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:54 am
                  Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Erin Dame Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:43 am
                        Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Michael Sherwin Sat Dec 09, 2017 4:56 am
                              Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Erin Dame Sat Dec 09, 2017 8:39 am
                                    Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Michael Sherwin Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:35 am
                                          Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Erin Dame Sat Dec 09, 2017 10:07 am
                                          Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better John Rebert Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:15 am
                                                Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better szabo, robert Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:49 am
                                                Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Michael Sherwin Sat Dec 09, 2017 5:44 pm
                                                      Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Erin Dame Sat Dec 09, 2017 5:52 pm
                                                            Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Michael Sherwin Sat Dec 09, 2017 6:36 pm
                                                                  Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Erin Dame Sat Dec 09, 2017 6:40 pm
                                                                        Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better John Rebert Sat Dec 09, 2017 8:05 pm
                                                                              Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Robin Messemer Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:37 pm
                                          Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Erin Dame Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:38 pm
                  Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better szabo, robert Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:39 am
                        Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better John Rebert Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:46 am
                              Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better szabo, robert Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:02 pm
                                    Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better John Rebert Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:14 pm
                                          Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better szabo, robert Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:59 pm
                        Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Michael Sherwin Sat Dec 09, 2017 5:49 pm
      Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Aloisio Ponti Sun Dec 10, 2017 5:36 pm
      Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Michael Pang Sun Dec 10, 2017 9:24 pm
            Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Rodolfo Leoni Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:15 pm
                  Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Carl Langan Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:13 am
                        Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Rodolfo Leoni Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:24 pm
                              Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Ronald de Man Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:22 pm
                                    Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Rodolfo Leoni Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:09 pm
                                          Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better szabo, robert Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:52 pm
                                    Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Uri Blass Tue Dec 12, 2017 3:14 pm
                                          Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Uri Blass Tue Dec 12, 2017 3:29 pm
                                          Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Rodolfo Leoni Tue Dec 12, 2017 5:59 pm
                                                Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Ronald de Man Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:47 pm
                                                      Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Rodolfo Leoni Wed Dec 13, 2017 8:45 am
                        Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Ulysses P. Wed Dec 13, 2017 10:03 pm
                              Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Rasmus Althoff Wed Dec 13, 2017 10:21 pm
                                    Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Ulysses P. Wed Dec 13, 2017 10:48 pm
                  Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Michael Sherwin Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:58 am
                        Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Rodolfo Leoni Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:33 pm
                        Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Rodolfo Leoni Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:39 am
                              Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Michael Sherwin Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:15 pm
                                    Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better Rodolfo Leoni Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:29 pm
                  Re: AlphaGo Zero And AlphaZero, RomiChess done better szabo, robert Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:11 pm
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