The point is that Rf8 as played loses and the supposed improvement Kf8 also loses. Truly remarkable for this all to be foreseen by A0 even when electing to sacrifice exchange with Rxc5.Jouni wrote:This move by SF8 was obviously caused by buggy repetion code. I got it sometimes:
Analysis by Stockfish 8 64 BMI2:
49...Rf8 50.Qf4 a6 51.Qf3 d6 52.Bxf7+ Rexf7 53.Rxf7 Rxf7 54.Qa8+ Rf8 55.Qd5+ Rf7 56.Qa8+
= (0.00) Depth: 43/34 00:00:07 63337kN, tb=16441
SFDev is bettered in this now. Another reason to use latest version!
AlphaZero - Stockfish game 3
Moderators: hgm, Rebel, chrisw
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- Posts: 73
- Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 9:48 am
- Location: New Zealand
Re: AlphaZero - Stockfish game 3
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- Posts: 4565
- Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2006 2:40 am
- Full name:
Re: AlphaZero - Stockfish game 3
You are the second person in this thread claiming this but I don't have any proof. So it must be somewhere else? Where can we find the way to win? Not that I don't believe you but there are some people on the troll path by daylight.chessmobile wrote: the supposed improvement Kf8 also loses. Truly remarkable for this all to be foreseen by A0 even when electing to sacrifice exchange with Rxc5.
4r1kq/p2prp1p/5RpP/2p5/7Q/1B4P1/P4PK1/8 b - -
Engine: Kaissa (512 MB)
by T. Romstad, M. Costalba, J. Kiiski, G. Linscott
23/11 0:01 0.00 49...Kf8 50.Qf4 Qg8 51.Bxf7 Rxf7
52.Qd6+ Ree7 53.Qb8+ Re8 54.Qd6+ (3.116.241) 1991
24/35 0:03 +0.42-- 49...Kf8 50.Qf4 (7.282.642) 1972
24/40 0:04 +0.63-- 49...Kf8 50.Qf4 (9.733.621) 1966
24/40 0:05 +0.57 49...Kf8 50.Qf4 Qg8 51.Qc7 c4
52.Qxc4 Rd8 53.g4 Ke8 54.g5 Qf8
55.Qa4 a6 56.Kh3 Rb8 57.Qd4 Re6
58.Rf3 Rd8 59.Kg2 Rb8 60.Bxe6 dxe6
61.Qc3 Rd8 62.Qc6+ Rd7 (10.968.178) 1949
25/37 0:06 +0.50++ 49...Kf8 (11.880.253) 1955
25/37 0:06 +0.42++ 49...Kf8 (12.006.518) 1958
25/38 0:07 +0.65-- 49...Kf8 50.Qf4 (14.591.099) 1968
25/42 0:08 +0.81-- 49...Kf8 50.Qf4 (16.360.990) 1977
25/43 0:08 +0.64++ 49...Kf8 (17.538.414) 1973
25/43 0:09 +0.63 49...Kf8 50.Qf4 Qg8 51.Qc7 c4
52.Qxc4 Rd8 53.g4 Ke8 54.g5 Qf8
55.Qd4 Re6 56.Rf3 Re7 57.Qxa7 Re5
58.Bxf7+ Ke7 59.Kh3 Rf5 60.Rxf5 gxf5
61.Bb3 Rc8 62.Kg2 f4 (17.783.184) 1971
26/38 0:10 +0.70-- 49...Kf8 50.Qf4 (19.807.402) 1972
26/38 0:10 +0.78-- 49...Kf8 50.Qf4 (20.804.537) 1974
26/41 0:11 +0.70++ 49...Kf8 (21.869.090) 1977
26/49 0:12 +0.89-- 49...Kf8 50.Qf4 (24.837.841) 1978
26/49 0:13 +0.89 49...Kf8 50.Qf4 Qg8 51.Qc7 c4
52.Qxc4 Rd8 53.Qc3 Ke8 54.g4 Qf8
55.g5 Re6 56.Rf3 Re7 57.Bd5 Re6
58.Qd4 a6 59.Qc3 Ke7 60.Qc5+ Ke8
61.Qd4 a5 62.Qc3 a4 (27.328.874) 1982
27/39 0:15 +0.89 49...Kf8 50.Qf4 Qg8 51.Qc7 c4
52.Qxc4 Rd8 53.Qc3 Ke8 54.g4 Qf8
55.g5 Re6 56.Rf3 Re7 57.Bd5 Re6
58.Qd4 a6 59.Qc3 Ke7 60.Qc5+ Ke8
61.Qd4 a5 62.Qc3 a4 (31.648.632) 1995
28/45 0:19 +0.97-- 49...Kf8 50.Qf4 (39.800.329) 2005
28/45 0:21 +0.89++ 49...Kf8 (42.393.903) 2007
28/45 0:21 +0.80 49...Kf8 50.Qf4 Qg8 51.Qc7 c4
52.Qxc4 Rd8 53.Qc3 Ke8 54.g4 Qf8
55.g5 Re6 56.Rf3 Re7 57.Bc4 Re6
58.Bd5 Ke7 59.Bb3 a6 60.Qc7 Ke8
61.Bxe6 dxe6 62.Qc6+ Rd7 (44.088.865) 2014
29/43 0:23 +0.87-- 49...Kf8 50.Qf4 (47.791.061) 2024
29/45 0:26 +0.80++ 49...Kf8 (53.691.405) 2025
29/45 0:29 +0.69++ 49...Kf8 (59.950.417) 2040
29/48 0:30 +0.53++ 49...Kf8 (62.557.586) 2038
29/48 0:33 +0.95-- 49...Kf8 50.Qf4 (68.094.685) 2042
29/60 0:45 +1.09 49...Kf8 50.Qf4 Qg8 51.Qc7 c4
52.Qxc4 Rd8 53.Qd4 Ke8 54.g4 Qf8
55.g5 Re6 56.Rf3 Qe7 57.Qh8+ Qf8
58.Qxh7 d5 59.Qg7 Re4 60.Bc2 Qxg7
61.hxg7 Ke7 62.Bxe4 dxe4 (92.376.490) 2041
30/52 0:47 +1.02++ 49...Kf8 (97.951.078) 2047
30/52 0:49 +0.94++ 49...Kf8 (100.922.642) 2048
30/52 0:50 +0.83++ 49...Kf8 (104.091.622) 2049
30/52 0:54 +1.02 49...Kf8 50.Qf4 Qg8 51.Qc7 c4
52.Qxc4 Rd8 53.Qd4 Ke8 54.g4 Qf8
55.g5 Re6 56.Rf3 Qe7 57.Qh8+ Qf8
58.Qxh7 d5 59.Qg7 Qxg7 60.hxg7 Ke7
61.Bxd5 Rg8 62.Bxe6 Kxe6 (112.066.860) 2049
31/49 1:02 +0.99 49...Kf8 50.Qf4 Qg8 51.Qc7 c4
52.Qxc4 Rd8 53.Qd4 Ke8 54.g4 Qf8
55.g5 Re6 56.Rf3 Qe7 57.Qh8+ Qf8
58.Qxh7 d5 59.Qg7 Qxg7 60.hxg7 Ke7
61.Bxd5 Rg8 62.Bxe6 Kxe6 (127.838.463) 2053
32/55 1:08 +1.06-- 49...Kf8 50.Qf4 (141.767.439) 2054
32/55 1:32 +0.99++ 49...Kf8 (192.351.166) 2085
32/55 1:44 +1.13 49...Kf8 50.Qf4 Qg8 51.Qc7 c4
52.Qxc4 Rd8 53.Qd4 Ke8 54.g4 Qf8
55.g5 Re6 56.Rf3 Qe7 57.Qh8+ Qf8
58.Qxh7 d5 59.Qg7 Qxg7 60.hxg7 Ke7
61.Bxd5 Rg8 62.Bxe6 Kxe6 (218.807.267) 2091
33/59 1:58 +1.05++ 49...Kf8 (250.468.610) 2109
33/59 2:06 +1.05 49...Kf8 50.Qf4 Qg8 51.Qc7 c4
52.Qxc4 Rd8 53.Qd4 Ke8 54.g4 Qf8
55.g5 Re6 56.Rf3 a6 57.Bd5 Qe7
58.Qh8+ Qf8 59.Qxh7 Ke7 60.Bxe6 dxe6
61.Rb3 Rd5 62.Rb7+ Kd6 (267.619.421) 2115
34/56 2:27 +0.98++ 49...Kf8 (313.493.282) 2131
34/56 2:33 +0.90++ 49...Kf8 (328.552.897) 2133
34/56 2:43 +1.00 49...Kf8 50.Qf4 Qg8 51.Qc7 c4
52.Qxc4 Rd8 53.Qd4 Ke8 54.g4 Qf8
55.g5 Re6 56.Rf3 Re7 57.Bd5 Re6
58.Qc3 Ke7 59.Qc5+ Ke8 60.Qd4 a5
61.Qc3 a4 62.Qd4 Qe7 (350.157.960) 2137
35/55 3:13 +1.07-- 49...Kf8 50.Qf4 (419.880.601) 2165
35/55 3:42 +1.00++ 49...Kf8 (482.219.024) 2168
35/55 3:56 +0.88++ 49...Kf8 (512.523.844) 2167
35/55 4:01 +1.00 49...Kf8 50.Qf4 Qg8 51.Qc7 c4
52.Qxc4 Rd8 53.Qd4 Ke8 54.g4 Qf8
55.g5 Re6 56.Rf3 Qe7 57.Qh8+ Qf8
58.Qxh7 Ke7 59.Bd5 Rc8 60.Bxe6 dxe6
61.Rb3 Rc5 62.Rb7+ Kd6 (522.866.176) 2167
36/52 4:33 +0.92++ 49...Kf8 (597.315.102) 2183
36/52 4:49 +0.85++ 49...Kf8 (633.591.409) 2187
36/55 5:23 +0.73++ 49...Kf8 (708.398.999) 2190
36/64 5:31 +1.07-- 49...Kf8 50.Qf4 (726.774.739) 2190
36/66 6:11 +0.82++ 49...Kf8 (816.142.738) 2194
36/66 6:32 +0.95 49...Kf8 50.Qf4 Qg8 51.Qc7 c4
52.Qxc4 Rd8 53.Qd4 Ke8 54.g4 Qf8
55.g5 Re6 56.Rf3 Qe7 57.Qh8+ Qf8
58.Qxh7 Ke7 59.Bd5 Rc8 60.Kh3 Rb8
61.Bxe6 dxe6 62.Rc3 Rc8 (860.135.718) 2193
37/56 7:06 +0.87++ 49...Kf8 (939.555.922) 2203
37/56 7:38 +0.83 49...Kf8 50.Qf4 Qg8 51.Qc7 c4
52.Qxc4 Rd8 53.Qd4 Ke8 54.g4 Qf8
55.g5 Re6 56.Rf3 Qe7 57.Qh8+ Qf8
58.Qxh7 Ke7 59.Bd5 Rc8 60.Kh3 Rb8
61.Bxe6 dxe6 62.Rc3 Rc8 (1.011.965.052) 2207
38/58 8:44 +0.76++ 49...Kf8 (1.157.422.563) 2208
38/63 9:45 +0.68++ 49...Kf8 (1.293.083.049) 2208
38/63 10:41 +0.68 49...Kf8 50.Qf4 Qg8 51.Qc7 c4
52.Qxc4 Rd8 53.Qd4 Ke8 54.g4 Qf8
55.g5 Re6 56.Rf3 a5 57.Bd5 Qb4
58.Qg7 Qf8 59.Qxh7 Ke7 60.Kg3 Rc8
61.Kg4 Rb8 62.Kh3 Rc8 (1.412.970.895) 2203
39/57 11:06 +0.75-- 49...Kf8 50.Qf4 (1.468.134.193) 2204
39/57 13:08 +0.75 49...Kf8 50.Qf4 Qg8 51.Qc7 c4
52.Qxc4 Rd8 53.Qd4 Ke8 54.g4 Qf8
55.g5 Re6 56.Rf3 a5 57.Bd5 Qb4
58.Qg7 Qf8 59.Qxh7 Ke7 60.Kg3 Rc8
61.Kg4 Rb8 62.Kh3 Rc8 (1.746.972.897) 2216
40/66 14:05 +0.83-- 49...Kf8 50.Qf4 (1.873.320.206) 2215
40/66 16:16 +0.75++ 49...Kf8 (2.174.831.973) 2227
40/66 18:41 +0.73 49...Kf8 50.Qf4 Qg8 51.Qc7 c4
52.Qxc4 Rd8 53.Qc3 Ke8 54.g4 Qf8
55.g5 a5 56.Bd5 Re6 57.Rf3 Qb4
58.Qg7 Qf8 59.Qxh7 Ke7 60.Kg3 Rc8
61.Kg4 Rb8 62.Kh3 Rc8 (2.502.436.268) 2230
41/58 23:27 +0.73 49...Kf8 50.Qf4 Qg8 51.Qc7 c4
52.Qxc4 Rd8 53.Qc3 Ke8 54.g4 Qf8
55.g5 a5 56.Bd5 Re6 57.Rf3 Qb4
58.Qg7 Qf8 59.Qxh7 Ke7 60.Kg3 Rc8
61.Kg4 Rb8 62.Kh3 Rd8 (3.167.816.958) 2251
42/64 24:32 +0.80-- 49...Kf8 50.Qf4 (3.320.753.769) 2254
42/64 29:48 +0.82 49...Kf8 50.Qf4 Qg8 51.Qc7 c4
52.Qxc4 Rd8 53.Qc3 Ke8 54.g4 Qf8
55.g5 a5 56.Bd5 Re6 57.Rf3 Qb4
58.Qg7 Qf8 59.Qxh7 Ke7 60.Kg3 Rc8
61.Kg4 Rb8 62.Kh3 Rd8 (4.056.102.704) 2267
43/68 37:19 +0.75++ 49...Kf8 (5.092.263.833) 2274
43/69 42:18 +0.68 49...Kf8 50.Qf4 Qg8 51.Qc7 c4
52.Qxc4 Rd8 53.Qd4 Ke8 54.g4 Qf8
55.g5 Re6 56.Rf3 a5 57.Kh3 Qd6
58.Qg7 Qf8 59.Qxh7 Ke7 60.Bd5 Rc8
61.Kh2 Rc5 62.Bxe6 Kxe6 (5.773.361.901) 2274
44/68 43:38 +0.76-- 49...Kf8 50.Qf4 (5.956.243.250) 2274
44/68 45:56 +0.83-- 49...Kf8 50.Qf4 (6.270.522.907) 2274
44/68 59:38 +0.77 49...Kf8 50.Qf4 Qg8 51.Qc7 c4
52.Qxc4 Rd8 53.Qd4 Ke8 54.g4 Qf8
55.g5 Re6 56.Rf3 a5 57.Kh3 Qd6
58.Qg7 Qf8 59.Qxh7 Ke7 60.Bd5 Rc8
61.Bxe6 dxe6 62.Rb3 e5 (8.127.319.433) 2270
45/65 72:07 +0.70++ 49...Kf8 (9.867.825.180) 2280
45/67 80:19 +0.67 49...Kf8 50.Qf4 Qg8 51.Qc7 c4
52.Qxc4 Rd8 53.Qd4 Ke8 54.g4 Qf8
55.g5 Re6 56.Rf3 a5 57.Bd5 Qb4
58.Qg7 Qf8 59.Qxh7 Ke7 60.Kh2 Rb8
61.Bc4 Rc8 62.Bxe6 dxe6 (11.005.092.745) 2283
Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first
place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you
are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it.
-- Brian W. Kernighan
place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you
are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it.
-- Brian W. Kernighan
-
- Posts: 73
- Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 9:48 am
- Location: New Zealand
Re: AlphaZero - Stockfish game 3
That last line of the PV is a very good defensive setup which I had missed in my assumption that Kf8 loses. I can't find any real improvements for white and retract my statement. Basically Kf8 allows the Queen more freedom to escape via f8 at later stage meanwhile white grabbing h7 pawn traps the white Queen.Eelco de Groot wrote:You are the second person in this thread claiming this but I don't have any proof. So it must be somewhere else? Where can we find the way to win? Not that I don't believe you but there are some people on the troll path by daylight.chessmobile wrote: the supposed improvement Kf8 also loses. Truly remarkable for this all to be foreseen by A0 even when electing to sacrifice exchange with Rxc5.
4r1kq/p2prp1p/5RpP/2p5/7Q/1B4P1/P4PK1/8 b - -
Engine: Kaissa (512 MB)
by T. Romstad, M. Costalba, J. Kiiski, G. Linscott
23/11 0:01 0.00 49...Kf8 50.Qf4 Qg8 51.Bxf7 Rxf7
52.Qd6+ Ree7 53.Qb8+ Re8 54.Qd6+ (3.116.241) 1991
24/35 0:03 +0.42-- 49...Kf8 50.Qf4 (7.282.642) 1972
24/40 0:04 +0.63-- 49...Kf8 50.Qf4 (9.733.621) 1966
24/40 0:05 +0.57 49...Kf8 50.Qf4 Qg8 51.Qc7 c4
52.Qxc4 Rd8 53.g4 Ke8 54.g5 Qf8
55.Qa4 a6 56.Kh3 Rb8 57.Qd4 Re6
58.Rf3 Rd8 59.Kg2 Rb8 60.Bxe6 dxe6
61.Qc3 Rd8 62.Qc6+ Rd7 (10.968.178) 1949
25/37 0:06 +0.50++ 49...Kf8 (11.880.253) 1955
25/37 0:06 +0.42++ 49...Kf8 (12.006.518) 1958
25/38 0:07 +0.65-- 49...Kf8 50.Qf4 (14.591.099) 1968
25/42 0:08 +0.81-- 49...Kf8 50.Qf4 (16.360.990) 1977
25/43 0:08 +0.64++ 49...Kf8 (17.538.414) 1973
25/43 0:09 +0.63 49...Kf8 50.Qf4 Qg8 51.Qc7 c4
52.Qxc4 Rd8 53.g4 Ke8 54.g5 Qf8
55.Qd4 Re6 56.Rf3 Re7 57.Qxa7 Re5
58.Bxf7+ Ke7 59.Kh3 Rf5 60.Rxf5 gxf5
61.Bb3 Rc8 62.Kg2 f4 (17.783.184) 1971
26/38 0:10 +0.70-- 49...Kf8 50.Qf4 (19.807.402) 1972
26/38 0:10 +0.78-- 49...Kf8 50.Qf4 (20.804.537) 1974
26/41 0:11 +0.70++ 49...Kf8 (21.869.090) 1977
26/49 0:12 +0.89-- 49...Kf8 50.Qf4 (24.837.841) 1978
26/49 0:13 +0.89 49...Kf8 50.Qf4 Qg8 51.Qc7 c4
52.Qxc4 Rd8 53.Qc3 Ke8 54.g4 Qf8
55.g5 Re6 56.Rf3 Re7 57.Bd5 Re6
58.Qd4 a6 59.Qc3 Ke7 60.Qc5+ Ke8
61.Qd4 a5 62.Qc3 a4 (27.328.874) 1982
27/39 0:15 +0.89 49...Kf8 50.Qf4 Qg8 51.Qc7 c4
52.Qxc4 Rd8 53.Qc3 Ke8 54.g4 Qf8
55.g5 Re6 56.Rf3 Re7 57.Bd5 Re6
58.Qd4 a6 59.Qc3 Ke7 60.Qc5+ Ke8
61.Qd4 a5 62.Qc3 a4 (31.648.632) 1995
28/45 0:19 +0.97-- 49...Kf8 50.Qf4 (39.800.329) 2005
28/45 0:21 +0.89++ 49...Kf8 (42.393.903) 2007
28/45 0:21 +0.80 49...Kf8 50.Qf4 Qg8 51.Qc7 c4
52.Qxc4 Rd8 53.Qc3 Ke8 54.g4 Qf8
55.g5 Re6 56.Rf3 Re7 57.Bc4 Re6
58.Bd5 Ke7 59.Bb3 a6 60.Qc7 Ke8
61.Bxe6 dxe6 62.Qc6+ Rd7 (44.088.865) 2014
29/43 0:23 +0.87-- 49...Kf8 50.Qf4 (47.791.061) 2024
29/45 0:26 +0.80++ 49...Kf8 (53.691.405) 2025
29/45 0:29 +0.69++ 49...Kf8 (59.950.417) 2040
29/48 0:30 +0.53++ 49...Kf8 (62.557.586) 2038
29/48 0:33 +0.95-- 49...Kf8 50.Qf4 (68.094.685) 2042
29/60 0:45 +1.09 49...Kf8 50.Qf4 Qg8 51.Qc7 c4
52.Qxc4 Rd8 53.Qd4 Ke8 54.g4 Qf8
55.g5 Re6 56.Rf3 Qe7 57.Qh8+ Qf8
58.Qxh7 d5 59.Qg7 Re4 60.Bc2 Qxg7
61.hxg7 Ke7 62.Bxe4 dxe4 (92.376.490) 2041
30/52 0:47 +1.02++ 49...Kf8 (97.951.078) 2047
30/52 0:49 +0.94++ 49...Kf8 (100.922.642) 2048
30/52 0:50 +0.83++ 49...Kf8 (104.091.622) 2049
30/52 0:54 +1.02 49...Kf8 50.Qf4 Qg8 51.Qc7 c4
52.Qxc4 Rd8 53.Qd4 Ke8 54.g4 Qf8
55.g5 Re6 56.Rf3 Qe7 57.Qh8+ Qf8
58.Qxh7 d5 59.Qg7 Qxg7 60.hxg7 Ke7
61.Bxd5 Rg8 62.Bxe6 Kxe6 (112.066.860) 2049
31/49 1:02 +0.99 49...Kf8 50.Qf4 Qg8 51.Qc7 c4
52.Qxc4 Rd8 53.Qd4 Ke8 54.g4 Qf8
55.g5 Re6 56.Rf3 Qe7 57.Qh8+ Qf8
58.Qxh7 d5 59.Qg7 Qxg7 60.hxg7 Ke7
61.Bxd5 Rg8 62.Bxe6 Kxe6 (127.838.463) 2053
32/55 1:08 +1.06-- 49...Kf8 50.Qf4 (141.767.439) 2054
32/55 1:32 +0.99++ 49...Kf8 (192.351.166) 2085
32/55 1:44 +1.13 49...Kf8 50.Qf4 Qg8 51.Qc7 c4
52.Qxc4 Rd8 53.Qd4 Ke8 54.g4 Qf8
55.g5 Re6 56.Rf3 Qe7 57.Qh8+ Qf8
58.Qxh7 d5 59.Qg7 Qxg7 60.hxg7 Ke7
61.Bxd5 Rg8 62.Bxe6 Kxe6 (218.807.267) 2091
33/59 1:58 +1.05++ 49...Kf8 (250.468.610) 2109
33/59 2:06 +1.05 49...Kf8 50.Qf4 Qg8 51.Qc7 c4
52.Qxc4 Rd8 53.Qd4 Ke8 54.g4 Qf8
55.g5 Re6 56.Rf3 a6 57.Bd5 Qe7
58.Qh8+ Qf8 59.Qxh7 Ke7 60.Bxe6 dxe6
61.Rb3 Rd5 62.Rb7+ Kd6 (267.619.421) 2115
34/56 2:27 +0.98++ 49...Kf8 (313.493.282) 2131
34/56 2:33 +0.90++ 49...Kf8 (328.552.897) 2133
34/56 2:43 +1.00 49...Kf8 50.Qf4 Qg8 51.Qc7 c4
52.Qxc4 Rd8 53.Qd4 Ke8 54.g4 Qf8
55.g5 Re6 56.Rf3 Re7 57.Bd5 Re6
58.Qc3 Ke7 59.Qc5+ Ke8 60.Qd4 a5
61.Qc3 a4 62.Qd4 Qe7 (350.157.960) 2137
35/55 3:13 +1.07-- 49...Kf8 50.Qf4 (419.880.601) 2165
35/55 3:42 +1.00++ 49...Kf8 (482.219.024) 2168
35/55 3:56 +0.88++ 49...Kf8 (512.523.844) 2167
35/55 4:01 +1.00 49...Kf8 50.Qf4 Qg8 51.Qc7 c4
52.Qxc4 Rd8 53.Qd4 Ke8 54.g4 Qf8
55.g5 Re6 56.Rf3 Qe7 57.Qh8+ Qf8
58.Qxh7 Ke7 59.Bd5 Rc8 60.Bxe6 dxe6
61.Rb3 Rc5 62.Rb7+ Kd6 (522.866.176) 2167
36/52 4:33 +0.92++ 49...Kf8 (597.315.102) 2183
36/52 4:49 +0.85++ 49...Kf8 (633.591.409) 2187
36/55 5:23 +0.73++ 49...Kf8 (708.398.999) 2190
36/64 5:31 +1.07-- 49...Kf8 50.Qf4 (726.774.739) 2190
36/66 6:11 +0.82++ 49...Kf8 (816.142.738) 2194
36/66 6:32 +0.95 49...Kf8 50.Qf4 Qg8 51.Qc7 c4
52.Qxc4 Rd8 53.Qd4 Ke8 54.g4 Qf8
55.g5 Re6 56.Rf3 Qe7 57.Qh8+ Qf8
58.Qxh7 Ke7 59.Bd5 Rc8 60.Kh3 Rb8
61.Bxe6 dxe6 62.Rc3 Rc8 (860.135.718) 2193
37/56 7:06 +0.87++ 49...Kf8 (939.555.922) 2203
37/56 7:38 +0.83 49...Kf8 50.Qf4 Qg8 51.Qc7 c4
52.Qxc4 Rd8 53.Qd4 Ke8 54.g4 Qf8
55.g5 Re6 56.Rf3 Qe7 57.Qh8+ Qf8
58.Qxh7 Ke7 59.Bd5 Rc8 60.Kh3 Rb8
61.Bxe6 dxe6 62.Rc3 Rc8 (1.011.965.052) 2207
38/58 8:44 +0.76++ 49...Kf8 (1.157.422.563) 2208
38/63 9:45 +0.68++ 49...Kf8 (1.293.083.049) 2208
38/63 10:41 +0.68 49...Kf8 50.Qf4 Qg8 51.Qc7 c4
52.Qxc4 Rd8 53.Qd4 Ke8 54.g4 Qf8
55.g5 Re6 56.Rf3 a5 57.Bd5 Qb4
58.Qg7 Qf8 59.Qxh7 Ke7 60.Kg3 Rc8
61.Kg4 Rb8 62.Kh3 Rc8 (1.412.970.895) 2203
39/57 11:06 +0.75-- 49...Kf8 50.Qf4 (1.468.134.193) 2204
39/57 13:08 +0.75 49...Kf8 50.Qf4 Qg8 51.Qc7 c4
52.Qxc4 Rd8 53.Qd4 Ke8 54.g4 Qf8
55.g5 Re6 56.Rf3 a5 57.Bd5 Qb4
58.Qg7 Qf8 59.Qxh7 Ke7 60.Kg3 Rc8
61.Kg4 Rb8 62.Kh3 Rc8 (1.746.972.897) 2216
40/66 14:05 +0.83-- 49...Kf8 50.Qf4 (1.873.320.206) 2215
40/66 16:16 +0.75++ 49...Kf8 (2.174.831.973) 2227
40/66 18:41 +0.73 49...Kf8 50.Qf4 Qg8 51.Qc7 c4
52.Qxc4 Rd8 53.Qc3 Ke8 54.g4 Qf8
55.g5 a5 56.Bd5 Re6 57.Rf3 Qb4
58.Qg7 Qf8 59.Qxh7 Ke7 60.Kg3 Rc8
61.Kg4 Rb8 62.Kh3 Rc8 (2.502.436.268) 2230
41/58 23:27 +0.73 49...Kf8 50.Qf4 Qg8 51.Qc7 c4
52.Qxc4 Rd8 53.Qc3 Ke8 54.g4 Qf8
55.g5 a5 56.Bd5 Re6 57.Rf3 Qb4
58.Qg7 Qf8 59.Qxh7 Ke7 60.Kg3 Rc8
61.Kg4 Rb8 62.Kh3 Rd8 (3.167.816.958) 2251
42/64 24:32 +0.80-- 49...Kf8 50.Qf4 (3.320.753.769) 2254
42/64 29:48 +0.82 49...Kf8 50.Qf4 Qg8 51.Qc7 c4
52.Qxc4 Rd8 53.Qc3 Ke8 54.g4 Qf8
55.g5 a5 56.Bd5 Re6 57.Rf3 Qb4
58.Qg7 Qf8 59.Qxh7 Ke7 60.Kg3 Rc8
61.Kg4 Rb8 62.Kh3 Rd8 (4.056.102.704) 2267
43/68 37:19 +0.75++ 49...Kf8 (5.092.263.833) 2274
43/69 42:18 +0.68 49...Kf8 50.Qf4 Qg8 51.Qc7 c4
52.Qxc4 Rd8 53.Qd4 Ke8 54.g4 Qf8
55.g5 Re6 56.Rf3 a5 57.Kh3 Qd6
58.Qg7 Qf8 59.Qxh7 Ke7 60.Bd5 Rc8
61.Kh2 Rc5 62.Bxe6 Kxe6 (5.773.361.901) 2274
44/68 43:38 +0.76-- 49...Kf8 50.Qf4 (5.956.243.250) 2274
44/68 45:56 +0.83-- 49...Kf8 50.Qf4 (6.270.522.907) 2274
44/68 59:38 +0.77 49...Kf8 50.Qf4 Qg8 51.Qc7 c4
52.Qxc4 Rd8 53.Qd4 Ke8 54.g4 Qf8
55.g5 Re6 56.Rf3 a5 57.Kh3 Qd6
58.Qg7 Qf8 59.Qxh7 Ke7 60.Bd5 Rc8
61.Bxe6 dxe6 62.Rb3 e5 (8.127.319.433) 2270
45/65 72:07 +0.70++ 49...Kf8 (9.867.825.180) 2280
45/67 80:19 +0.67 49...Kf8 50.Qf4 Qg8 51.Qc7 c4
52.Qxc4 Rd8 53.Qd4 Ke8 54.g4 Qf8
55.g5 Re6 56.Rf3 a5 57.Bd5 Qb4
58.Qg7 Qf8 59.Qxh7 Ke7 60.Kh2 Rb8
61.Bc4 Rc8 62.Bxe6 dxe6 (11.005.092.745) 2283
-
- Posts: 4565
- Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2006 2:40 am
- Full name:
Re: AlphaZero - Stockfish game 3
Thanks very much for investigating it Chris!
Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first
place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you
are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it.
-- Brian W. Kernighan
place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you
are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it.
-- Brian W. Kernighan
-
- Posts: 1339
- Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 9:43 am
- Location: New Delhi, India
Re: AlphaZero - Stockfish game 3
You are all missing one very basic point, that is, you are all handicapped by having to analyze/find the PV using the LOSING ENGINE, Stockfish, which has been completely outclassed !chessmobile wrote:That last line of the PV is a very good defensive setup which I had missed in my assumption that Kf8 loses. I can't find any real improvements for white and retract my statement. Basically Kf8 allows the Queen more freedom to escape via f8 at later stage meanwhile white grabbing h7 pawn traps the white Queen.
Of course, you have no choice, as you have no access to the deadly AlphaZero ; so you can have no idea what surprise moves AlphaZero would have played in response to KF8.
To even assume that AlphaZero would follow even the best PV Stockfish could find is laughable, to say the least !
i7 5960X @ 4.1 Ghz, 64 GB G.Skill RipJaws RAM, Twin Asus ROG Strix OC 11 GB Geforce 2080 Tis
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- Posts: 38
- Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2017 8:52 am
Re: AlphaZero - Stockfish game 3
I'm wondering if it is an improvement in this last PV to have the white queen on c3 instead of d4:chessmobile wrote:That last line of the PV is a very good defensive setup which I had missed in my assumption that Kf8 loses. I can't find any real improvements for white and retract my statement.Eelco de Groot wrote:You are the second person in this thread claiming this but I don't have any proof. So it must be somewhere else? Where can we find the way to win? Not that I don't believe you but there are some people on the troll path by daylight.chessmobile wrote: the supposed improvement Kf8 also loses.
4r1kq/p2prp1p/5RpP/2p5/7Q/1B4P1/P4PK1/8 b - -
45/67 80:19 +0.67 49...Kf8 50.Qf4 Qg8 51.Qc7 c4
52.Qxc4 Rd8 53.Qd4 Ke8 54.g4 Qf8
55.g5 Re6 56.Rf3 a5 57.Bd5 Qb4
58.Qg7 Qf8 59.Qxh7 Ke7 60.Kh2 Rb8
61.Bc4 Rc8 62.Bxe6 dxe6 (11.005.092.745) 2283
49...Kf8 50. Qf4 Qg8 51. Qc7 c4 52. Qxc4 Rd8 53. g4 Ke8 54. Qc3 Qf8 55. g5 Re6 56. Rf3
I've had SF analyze to depth 70 and evaluate this as +1.75. There are a lot of tricky R+P endgames to evaluate. I'm not convinced either way if it's winning or drawing.
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- Posts: 1339
- Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 9:43 am
- Location: New Delhi, India
Re: AlphaZero - Stockfish game 3
Again the pointless exercise of analyzing with the losing Engine, Stockfish.TommyTC wrote:I've had SF analyze to depth 70 and evaluate this as +1.75. There are a lot of tricky R+P endgames to evaluate. I'm not convinced either way if it's winning or drawing.
What makes you think that AlphaZero would be so obliging as going along with Stockfish's "Analysis" ?
Don't forget that you are dealing with a totally different type of Chess entity, which is not forced to follow the conventional methods of Search and Evaluation, if at all.
When Stockfish's "Analysis" couldn't find some of the surprise moves that AlphaZero made in the earlier part of the Game, what makes you think it would know for sure what moves AlphaZero would have made in response to Kf8 ?
In short, Stockfish is up a River without a Paddle while playing against Alphazero.
Of course, supporters of the suddenly obsolete conventional chess engines are desperately trying to provide it one, and the scene is almost comical !
i7 5960X @ 4.1 Ghz, 64 GB G.Skill RipJaws RAM, Twin Asus ROG Strix OC 11 GB Geforce 2080 Tis
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- Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:24 pm
Re: AlphaZero - Stockfish game 3
Threads. They used a 32 core machine but ran it with 64 threads, the little rascals.MikeGL wrote:
You are correct, 49...Kf8 seems to hold and is just roughly equal,
while 49.Rf8? is -10.29 in eval. Strange play by SF8 with 49...Rf8 when it
was even said to be on 64 cores.
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Re: AlphaZero - Stockfish game 3
Not necessarily. Threads could refer to both Hyper-Threads and Physical Threads.Werewolf wrote:Threads. They used a 32 core machine but ran it with 64 threads, the little rascals.
But since they failed to specify, yes, it is open to Debate.
So congratz, you found a Loophole in their Paper.
They should have been more careful, but they didn't know that people would be poring over their Paper with a Microscope ,desperately looking for errors !
i7 5960X @ 4.1 Ghz, 64 GB G.Skill RipJaws RAM, Twin Asus ROG Strix OC 11 GB Geforce 2080 Tis
-
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- Full name:
Re: AlphaZero - Stockfish game 3
Hi Thomas, this is what I get with Kaissa after 54. Qc3 Note that the final positions are getting thinned out now, I get 7 pieces so very close to EGTBs. But I do not have EGTBs installed Kaissa evaluates the passed pawns with Rooks only on board less, but that is just a small correction based on personal taste and I have not tuned it further.TommyTC wrote:I'm wondering if it is an improvement in this last PV to have the white queen on c3 instead of d4:chessmobile wrote:That last line of the PV is a very good defensive setup which I had missed in my assumption that Kf8 loses. I can't find any real improvements for white and retract my statement.Eelco de Groot wrote:You are the second person in this thread claiming this but I don't have any proof. So it must be somewhere else? Where can we find the way to win? Not that I don't believe you but there are some people on the troll path by daylight.chessmobile wrote: the supposed improvement Kf8 also loses.
4r1kq/p2prp1p/5RpP/2p5/7Q/1B4P1/P4PK1/8 b - -
45/67 80:19 +0.67 49...Kf8 50.Qf4 Qg8 51.Qc7 c4
52.Qxc4 Rd8 53.Qd4 Ke8 54.g4 Qf8
55.g5 Re6 56.Rf3 a5 57.Bd5 Qb4
58.Qg7 Qf8 59.Qxh7 Ke7 60.Kh2 Rb8
61.Bc4 Rc8 62.Bxe6 dxe6 (11.005.092.745) 2283
49...Kf8 50. Qf4 Qg8 51. Qc7 c4 52. Qxc4 Rd8 53. g4 Ke8 54. Qc3 Qf8 55. g5 Re6 56. Rf3
I've had SF analyze to depth 70 and evaluate this as +1.75. There are a lot of tricky R+P endgames to evaluate. I'm not convinced either way if it's winning or drawing.
[D]3rk1q1/p2prp1p/5RpP/8/6P1/1BQ5/P4PK1/8 b - -
Engine: Kaissa (512 MB)
by T. Romstad, M. Costalba, J. Kiiski, G. Linscott
20/40 0:01 +0.69 54...Qf8 55.g5 Re6 56.Rf3 a6 57.Bd5 a5
58.a3 a4 59.Qd4 Qd6 60.Qg7 Qf8
61.Qxh7 Rc8 62.Rf4 Rc5 63.Rxa4 Rxd5
64.Ra8+ Ke7 65.Rxf8 Rxg5+ 66.Kf3 Rf5+
67.Kg3 Kxf8 (3.764.706) 2009
21/36 0:02 +0.85 54...Qf8 55.g5 Re6 56.Rf3 a6 57.Bd5 Ke7
58.Qd4 Ke8 59.Bb3 Qe7 60.Qh8+ Qf8
61.Qxh7 d5 62.Qg7 Qxg7 63.hxg7 Ke7
64.Bxd5 Rg8 65.Bxe6 fxe6 66.Ra3 Rxg7
67.Rxa6 Rg8 (5.513.870) 2025
.
.
.
30/50 1:09 +0.68 54...Qf8 55.g5 a5 56.Rf3 Re6 57.Bd5 Qe7
58.Qh8+ Qf8 59.Qxh7 Ke7 60.Kh3 Rc8
61.Kh2 Rb8 62.Bc4 Rc8 63.Bb3 Rb8
64.Bxe6 dxe6 65.Kh3 Rc8 66.Rb3 e5
67.f3 Ke6 (151.141.282) 2176
31/43 1:17 +0.75-- 54...Qf8 55.g5 (169.137.993) 2186
31/43 1:22 +0.83-- 54...Qf8 55.g5 (182.230.671) 2197
31/43 1:27 +0.75++ 54...Qf8 (194.009.267) 2210
31/48 1:34 +0.75 54...Qf8 55.g5 a5 56.Rf3 Re6 57.Kh3 Qe7
58.Bxe6 dxe6 59.Qh8+ Qf8 60.Qxh7 Ke7
61.Rb3 e5 62.Kg3 Ke6 63.Rf3 Ke7
64.Rf6 Rd1 65.Qg7 Qxg7 66.hxg7 Rd8
67.Ra6 Rg8 (209.318.840) 2212
32/53 1:40 +0.82-- 54...Qf8 55.g5 (222.810.379) 2215
32/53 1:48 +0.75++ 54...Qf8 (241.877.967) 2228
32/53 1:54 +0.64++ 54...Qf8 (256.353.818) 2231
32/53 2:15 +0.61 54...Qf8 55.g5 a5 56.Rf3 Re6 57.Bd5 Qe7
58.Qh8+ Qf8 59.Qxh7 Ke7 60.Kg3 Rb8
61.Bxe6 dxe6 62.Kh2 Rc8 63.Rb3 e5
64.Kg3 Ke6 65.Rf3 Ke7 66.Rf6 Rc1
67.Qg7 Qxg7 (301.104.805) 2216
.
.
.
48/74 198:48 +0.99 54...Qf8 55.g5 Re6 56.Rf3 Qd6
57.Bxe6 dxe6 58.Qh8+ Qf8 59.Qxh7 Ke7
60.Rb3 Rd5 61.Rb7+ Kd6 62.Qxf7 Rxg5+
63.Kf1 Qxf7 64.Rxf7 Rh5 65.h7 a5
66.a4 Rh2 67.Ra7 e5 (32.041.458.496) 2686
49/59 223:54 +0.91++ 54...Qf8 (36.245.549.294) 2698
49/63 242:26 +0.84++ 54...Qf8 (39.351.367.102) 2705
49/68 289:06 +0.72++ 54...Qf8 (46.831.946.533) 2699
49/70 298:12 +0.93 54...Qf8 55.g5 Re6 56.Rf3 Qe7
57.Qh8+ Qf8 58.Qxh7 Ke7 59.Bxe6 dxe6
60.Rc3 Rd5 61.Rc7+ Kd6 62.Qxf7 Rxg5+
63.Kf1 Qxf7 64.Rxf7 Rh5 65.h7 a5
66.Ra7 e5 67.a4 Ke6 (48.267.900.342) 2697
50/70 322:04 +0.85++ 54...Qf8 (52.109.597.322) 2696
50/70 356:15 +0.78++ 54...Qf8 (57.661.578.456) 2697
50/75 427:36 +0.67++ 54...Qf8 (69.046.251.765) 2691
50/75 504:00 +0.56 54...Qf8 55.g5 Re6 56.Rf3 Qe7
57.Qh8+ Qf8 58.Qxh7 Ke7 59.Bxe6 dxe6
60.Rb3 Rd5 61.Rb7+ Kd6 62.Qxf7 Rxg5+
63.Kf1 Qxf7 64.Rxf7 Rh5 65.h7 a5
66.Ra7 e5 67.Ra6+ Kc5 (81.268.650.946) 2687
51/76 516:03 +0.63-- 54...Qf8 55.g5 (83.263.420.604) 2689
51/76 555:51 +0.71-- 54...Qf8 55.g5 (89.776.367.118) 2691
51/76 576:29 +0.82-- 54...Qf8 55.g5 (93.187.093.884) 2694
51/78 637:53 +0.72++ 54...Qf8 (103.242.907.431) 2697
51/78 648:52 +0.72 54...Qf8 55.g5 Re6 56.Rf3 Qe7
57.Qh8+ Qf8 58.Qxh7 Ke7 59.Bxe6 dxe6
60.Kh2 Rc8 61.Rb3 e5 62.Kg3 e4
63.Qg7 Qxg7 64.hxg7 Rg8 65.Re3 Rxg7
66.Rxe4+ Kd6 67.Ra4 f5 (105.013.344.954) 2697
52/68 657:52 +0.80-- 54...Qf8 55.g5 (106.477.593.333) 2697
52/70 882:59 +0.72++ 54...Qf8 (144.360.302.335) 2724
52/77 1004:40+0.62 54...Qf8 55.g5 Re6 56.Rf3 Qe7
57.Qh8+ Qf8 58.Qxh7 Ke7 59.Bxe6 dxe6
60.Rc3 Rd5 61.Rc7+ Kd6 62.Qxf7 Rxg5+
63.Kf1 Qxf7 64.Rxf7 Rh5 65.h7 a5
66.Ra7 e5 67.Ra6+ Kc5 {[D]8/7P/R5p1/p1k1p2r/8/8/P4P2/5K2 w - -} (163.599.434.339) 2713
Leaf:
[pgn]
[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2017.12.17"]
[Round "?"]
[White "?"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "*"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "8/7P/R5p1/p1k1p2r/8/8/P4P2/5K2 w - -"]
1. Rxa5+ Kb6 2. Rxe5 Rxh7 *
[/pgn]
Leaf of Leafposition, best four moves:
[D]8/7r/1k4p1/4R3/8/8/P4P2/5K2 w - -
Engine: Kaissa HT (7 threads, 256 MB)
by T. Romstad, M. Costalba, J. Kiiski, G. Linscott
36 24:14 +0.81 3.Re6+ Kc5 4.Ra6 g5 5.a4 Rh1+ 6.Kg2 Ra1
7.Kg3 Rg1+ 8.Kh2 Ra1 9.Kg2 Ra2
10.Kg3 Ra1 11.f3 Rg1+ 12.Kh3 Rh1+
13.Kg2 Ra1 14.a5 Kb5 15.Rg6 Kxa5
16.Rxg5+ (22.078.251.308) 15177
35 24:14 +0.66 3.Re4 Ra7 4.a4 Kc6 5.Ke2 g5 6.Rd4 Kc5
7.Ke3 Ra5 8.Ke4 Kc6 9.Kf3 Kc5 10.Ke3 Ra8
11.Rg4 Kd6 12.Kf3 Ra7 13.Kg2 Ke6
14.Kg3 Kf6 15.Rc4 Ra8 16.Kf3 (22.078.251.308) 15177
35 24:14 +0.66 3.a4 Ra7 4.Re6+ Kc5 5.Re4 Kd5 6.Rg4 Ke6
7.Ke2 g5 8.Ke3 Ra6 9.Re4+ Kd6 10.Kd3 Ra5
11.Rd4+ Ke5 12.Kc3 Ra8 13.Rg4 Kd6
14.Kd3 Ra7 15.Rb4 Ra8 16.Rd4+ (22.078.251.308) 15177
35 24:14 +0.27 3.Kg2 Ra7 4.Re2 Kc6 5.Kf3 Ra4 6.Rd2 g5
7.Kg3 Rf4 8.a3 Ra4 9.Rd3 Kc5 10.Kg2 Kc6
11.Kf1 Ra7 12.Ke2 Ra4 13.Kf3 Rf4+
14.Ke3 Ra4 15.Kd2 Rf4 16.Ke1 (22.078.251.308) 15177
Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first
place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you
are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it.
-- Brian W. Kernighan
place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you
are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it.
-- Brian W. Kernighan