If you cannot research on a fail high/low you knowingly play a bad move. This could be interpreted as destroying search and it costs a hell of a lot of Elo.Adam Hair wrote:How does fixed time destroy SF's search? Does the search operate in a different manner based on the time control?Jouni wrote:I did some single core test 1 MB vs. 64 MB. HERT500.PGN book. With fixed time=1 sec 1 MB was better than bigger? With 60s + 0,6s it changed totally:Obviously fixed time per move DESTROYS SF SEARCH BADLY!Code: Select all
1 SF 64MB +42 +33/=158/-9 56.00% 112.0/200 2 SF 1MB -42 +9/=158/-33 44.00% 88.0/200
AlphaZero Chess test - SF8 16 GB vs. 512 MB
Moderators: hgm, Rebel, chrisw
-
- Posts: 4190
- Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 1:47 am
Re: AlphaZero Chess test - SF8 16 GB vs. 512 MB
-
- Posts: 5563
- Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:56 pm
Re: AlphaZero Chess test - SF8 16 GB vs. 512 MB
It does not destroy SF's search at all.Adam Hair wrote:How does fixed time destroy SF's search? Does the search operate in a different manner based on the time control?Jouni wrote:I did some single core test 1 MB vs. 64 MB. HERT500.PGN book. With fixed time=1 sec 1 MB was better than bigger? With 60s + 0,6s it changed totally:Obviously fixed time per move DESTROYS SF SEARCH BADLY!Code: Select all
1 SF 64MB +42 +33/=158/-9 56.00% 112.0/200 2 SF 1MB -42 +9/=158/-33 44.00% 88.0/200
The "bad" thing that can happen is that SF realises that its move from iteration N isn't as good as it had hoped at iteration N+1 and time runs out before it can finish iteration N+1. But if this happens, SF will still play a move that - at iteration N+1 - is at least as good as the best move from iteration N (either it won't switch or it will switch to a better move, just possibly not the move that is best at iteration N+1 because it didn't have the time to figure out what that best move is).
-
- Posts: 4556
- Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 4:30 am
Re: AlphaZero Chess test - SF8 16 GB vs. 512 MB
This can be tested.syzygy wrote:It does not destroy SF's search at all.
The "bad" thing that can happen is that SF realises that its move from iteration N isn't as good as it had hoped at iteration N+1 and time runs out before it can finish iteration N+1. But if this happens, SF will still play a move that - at iteration N+1 - is at least as good as the best move from iteration N (either it won't switch or it will switch to a better move, just possibly not the move that is best at iteration N+1 because it didn't have the time to figure out what that best move is).
Just like 16 GB vs. 512 MB was tested, you can test how crippled is Stockfish at 1 min/move by matching it against, say, a Stockfish with 40 moves in 40 minutes repeating time control. The second one will be able to manage its time as it wishes, while the first one must move in one minute.
-
- Posts: 3226
- Joined: Wed May 06, 2009 10:31 pm
- Location: Fuquay-Varina, North Carolina
Re: AlphaZero Chess test - SF8 16 GB vs. 512 MB
I can't replicate your results. In two sets of tests using a 3 move epd from Kai and the HERT500 pgn, SF8 with 64MB hash is better than 1MB hash at 1sec/move and 60"+0.6":Jouni wrote:I did some single core test 1 MB vs. 64 MB. HERT500.PGN book. With fixed time=1 sec 1 MB was better than bigger? With 60s + 0,6s it changed totally:Obviously fixed time per move DESTROYS SF SEARCH BADLY!Code: Select all
1 SF 64MB +42 +33/=158/-9 56.00% 112.0/200 2 SF 1MB -42 +9/=158/-33 44.00% 88.0/200
Code: Select all
3moves_2200Elo.epd @ 1"/move
# PLAYER : RATING ERROR PLAYED (%) CFS(%) W D L D(%)
1 64MB : 25.4 15.1 500 54 100 85 366 49 73
2 1MB : 0.0 ---- 500 46 --- 49 366 85 73
3moves_2200Elo.epd @ 60"+0.6"
# PLAYER : RATING ERROR PLAYED (%) CFS(%) W D L D(%)
1 64MB : 29.1 13.5 500 54 100 71 399 30 80
2 1MB : 0.0 ---- 500 46 --- 30 399 71 80
HERT500.pgn @ 1"/move
# PLAYER : RATING ERROR PLAYED (%) CFS(%) W D L D(%)
1 64MB : 20.6 11.9 1000 53 100 181 696 123 70
2 1MB : 0.0 ---- 1000 47 --- 123 696 181 70
HERT500.pgn @ 60"+0.6"
# PLAYER : RATING ERROR PLAYED (%) CFS(%) W D L D(%)
1 64MB : 27.7 9.9 1000 54 100 154 770 76 77
2 1MB : 0.0 ---- 1000 46 --- 76 770 154 77
Did you use Stockfish 8 in your tests?
-
- Posts: 3226
- Joined: Wed May 06, 2009 10:31 pm
- Location: Fuquay-Varina, North Carolina
Re: AlphaZero Chess test - SF8 16 GB vs. 512 MB
There is a limit to how much time Stockfish can use to resolve a fail high/low no matter the time control. So it is not an issue that arises solely with fixed time. It is just a question of how much more it occurs at fixed time rather than a comparable tc.Milos wrote:If you cannot research on a fail high/low you knowingly play a bad move. This could be interpreted as destroying search and it costs a hell of a lot of Elo.Adam Hair wrote:How does fixed time destroy SF's search? Does the search operate in a different manner based on the time control?Jouni wrote:I did some single core test 1 MB vs. 64 MB. HERT500.PGN book. With fixed time=1 sec 1 MB was better than bigger? With 60s + 0,6s it changed totally:Obviously fixed time per move DESTROYS SF SEARCH BADLY!Code: Select all
1 SF 64MB +42 +33/=158/-9 56.00% 112.0/200 2 SF 1MB -42 +9/=158/-33 44.00% 88.0/200
The Elo cost does not seem to be extreme at 1"/move and I believe it would be less at 1'/move (even in normalized Elo).
-
- Posts: 3226
- Joined: Wed May 06, 2009 10:31 pm
- Location: Fuquay-Varina, North Carolina
Re: AlphaZero Chess test - SF8 16 GB vs. 512 MB
Thanks! This how I thought it worked.syzygy wrote:It does not destroy SF's search at all.Adam Hair wrote:How does fixed time destroy SF's search? Does the search operate in a different manner based on the time control?Jouni wrote:I did some single core test 1 MB vs. 64 MB. HERT500.PGN book. With fixed time=1 sec 1 MB was better than bigger? With 60s + 0,6s it changed totally:Obviously fixed time per move DESTROYS SF SEARCH BADLY!Code: Select all
1 SF 64MB +42 +33/=158/-9 56.00% 112.0/200 2 SF 1MB -42 +9/=158/-33 44.00% 88.0/200
The "bad" thing that can happen is that SF realises that its move from iteration N isn't as good as it had hoped at iteration N+1 and time runs out before it can finish iteration N+1. But if this happens, SF will still play a move that - at iteration N+1 - is at least as good as the best move from iteration N (either it won't switch or it will switch to a better move, just possibly not the move that is best at iteration N+1 because it didn't have the time to figure out what that best move is).