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Human versus Machine
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Andreas Strangmüller



Joined: 19 Aug 2013
Posts: 321

PostPost subject: Re: Stockfish and Fischer    Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:55 pm Reply to topic Reply with quote

Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:
If you/SF is able to take back moves, I should be able to do the same, I guess.
In your line, e4 instead of Rg1 seems to be much better:

[d]1rr2bk1/3q3p/4pRp1/p2pP1P1/2pPP3/P1P3RQ/3B3P/3bN2K b - - 0 5
   BR BR ::    BB BK ::
::    :: BQ ::    :: BP
   ::    :: BP WR BP ::
BP    :: BP WP    WP    
   :: BP WP WP ::    ::
WP    WP    ::    WR WQ
   ::    WB    ::    WP
::    :: BB WN    :: WK


Maybe, black will be able to draw, I don't know.

[d]r1q2rk1/pb2bp1p/4p1p1/1p1pP1Pn/2pP4/P1P1P2Q/1PBN3P/R1B2RK1 w - - 0 17
BR :: BQ ::    BR BK ::
BP BB ::    BB BP :: BP
   ::    :: BP :: BP ::
:: BP :: BP WP    WP BN
   :: BP WP    ::    ::
WP    WP    WP    :: WQ
   WP WB WN    ::    WP
WR    WB    :: WR WK    

To remind the whole move order:
17. Rf6 Qd8 18. Nf3 a5 19. Bd2 b4 20. Kh1 Bc6 21. Rg1 bxa3 22. bxa3 Rb8 23. Ne1 Qd7 24. Bd1 Ng7 25. Qh6 Ba4 26. Bg4 Rfc8 27. Rg3 Nh5 28. Bxh5 Bf8 29. Bxg6 fxg6 30. Qh3 Bd1 31. e4

Stockfish is optimistic to hold the position or even to win it after 31.e4:

[d]1rr2bk1/3q3p/4pRp1/p2pP1P1/2pPP3/P1P3RQ/3B3P/3bN2K b - - 0 31
   BR BR ::    BB BK ::
::    :: BQ ::    :: BP
   ::    :: BP WR BP ::
BP    :: BP WP    WP    
   :: BP WP WP ::    ::
WP    WP    ::    WR WQ
   ::    WB    ::    WP
::    :: BB WN    :: WK

Code:
 48/85   1:03:24   139.396.477k   36.644k   +2,22   31. ... dxe4 32.Rg2 Bxa3 33.Rgf2 Bh5 34.Kg2 Rb1 35.Qe3 Bg4 36.Qxe4 Qb7 37.Qxb7 Rxb7 38.Nc2 Be7 39.R6f4 Bf5 40.Ne3 Bxg5 41.Nxf5 gxf5 42.R4f3 Bxd2 43.Rxd2 a4 44.d5 a3 45.Rff2 exd5 46.Rxd5 Ra8 47.Ra2 Rb3 48.e6 Rxc3 49.e7 Re8 50.Ra5 Rxe7 51.R5xa3 Rxa3 52.Rxa3 Kf7 53.Kf3 Kf6 54.Ra2 c3 55.Rc2 Rc7 56.Kf4 h6 57.h3 Ke6 58.Ke3 Ke5 59.Kd3 f4 60.Rxc3

Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:
I don't know what you want to claim, that Rf6 does not win?
Certainly it does, I am just too tired now and extremely busy to do careful analysis of alternative lines.

So far I have not claimed anything, have I?
It's an very interesting and highly complex position. Rf6 is the best move and gives white advantage, but whether this advantage is enough to win is still not quite clear. Right now I would say white has good winning chances.

Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:
Btw., after Rf6 Qd8 Nf1 Nf6 gf6 Bf6 ef6 Qf6, did you check with longer search all the lines:

[d]r4rk1/pb3p1p/4pqp1/1p1p4/2pP4/P1P1P2Q/1PB4P/R1B2NK1 w - - 0 5
BR ::    ::    BR BK ::
BP BB ::    :: BP :: BP
   ::    :: BP BQ BP ::
:: BP :: BP ::    ::    
   :: BP WP    ::    ::
WP    WP    WP    :: WQ
   WP WB ::    ::    WP
WR    WB    :: WN WK    


I guess this is won for white, but you will need 30-40 moves until the score changes.
I myself tried this with SF and it starts winning after 30-40 moves.
From my experience drawn from different databases and top engine games, 2 minor pieces vs rook + 2 pawns, when the 2 minors also have the bishop pair is won for the minor side, in maybe at least 90% of cases, so, I suggest you

check more carefully/maybe play some games to get convinced.

I'll take again a closer look at this position.

Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:
Alternatively, white has also Bd1 instead of Nf1:

[d]r2q1rk1/pb2bp1p/4pRp1/1p1pP1Pn/2pP4/P1P1P2Q/1P1N3P/R1BB2K1 b - - 0 2
BR ::    BQ    BR BK ::
BP BB ::    BB BP :: BP
   ::    :: BP WR BP ::
:: BP :: BP WP    WP BN
   :: BP WP    ::    ::
WP    WP    WP    :: WQ
   WP    WN    ::    WP
WR    WB WB ::    WK    


This should also be investigated closely.

I am fully certain Rf6 wins, and maybe other moves too.
I just don't have even couple of minutes time now to give just this position.

It is a pity all the most beautiful lines are not evident from what SF chooses.
There are really some very intriguing variations here, if SF accepts the sacrifice.
Pity I don't have more time.


As I said before, it's a very complex position.
The white attack looks very dangerous. But black also has defense resources and counterplay on the queenside.

The whole thread has become quite confusing and it is becoming more and more difficult to follow the postings and analyses.
Maybe I have the time for a summary of our analyses.
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Display posts from previous:   
Subject Author Date/Time
Human versus Machine Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sun Oct 08, 2017 5:44 am
      Re: Human versus Machine Milos Stanisavljevic Sun Oct 08, 2017 6:54 pm
            Re: Human versus Machine Lyudmil Tsvetkov Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:25 am
      Re: Human versus Machine Lyudmil Tsvetkov Tue Oct 10, 2017 2:56 am
            Re: Human versus Machine Lyudmil Tsvetkov Tue Oct 10, 2017 2:59 am
                  Re: Human versus Machine Adam Kostas Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:24 pm
                        Re: Human versus Machine Lyudmil Tsvetkov Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:23 am
      Re: Human versus Machine Michael B Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:24 am
            Re: Human versus Machine Nay Lin Tun Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:20 pm
                  Re: Human versus Machine Michael B Thu Oct 12, 2017 5:29 pm
                  Re: Human versus Machine Adam Kostas Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:20 pm
                        Re: Human versus Machine Lyudmil Tsvetkov Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:57 am
                  Re: Human versus Machine Lyudmil Tsvetkov Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:53 am
                        Re: Human versus Machine Uri Blass Fri Oct 27, 2017 7:55 pm
                              Re: Human versus Machine Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Oct 28, 2017 2:34 am
            Re: Human versus Machine Lyudmil Tsvetkov Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:32 am
                  Re: Human versus Machine Lyudmil Tsvetkov Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:42 am
                  Re: Human versus Machine Michael B Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:55 am
                        Re: Human versus Machine Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Oct 14, 2017 6:42 am
                              Re: Human versus Machine Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Oct 14, 2017 6:46 am
                                    Part 2 Lyudmil Tsvetkov Fri Oct 27, 2017 6:01 am
                                          Re: Part 2 Lyudmil Tsvetkov Fri Oct 27, 2017 6:05 am
                                                Re: Part 2 Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Oct 28, 2017 2:08 am
                                                      Re: Part 2 Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Oct 28, 2017 2:16 am
                                                            A blast from the past Lyudmil Tsvetkov Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:35 am
                                                                  Re: A blast from the past Lyudmil Tsvetkov Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:38 am
                                                                  Re: A blast from the past Mike Libanan Tue Jan 02, 2018 6:07 pm
                                                                        Re: A blast from the past Lyudmil Tsvetkov Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:49 pm
                                                                              Re: A blast from the past Mike Libanan Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:53 am
                                                                                    Re: A blast from the past Lyudmil Tsvetkov Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:17 pm
                                                                                          Re: A blast from the past Guenther Simon Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:41 pm
                                                                                          Re: A blast from the past Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Jan 06, 2018 7:11 pm
                                                                                          Re: A blast from the past Mike Libanan Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:12 am
                                                                                          Re: A blast from the past Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Jan 06, 2018 7:20 pm
                                                                                          Re: A blast from the past Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Jan 06, 2018 7:29 pm
                                                                                          Re: A blast from the past Adam Hair Sat Jan 06, 2018 4:54 pm
                                                                                          Re: A blast from the past Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Jan 06, 2018 7:09 pm
                                                                                    Re: A blast from the past Uri Blass Sat Jan 06, 2018 8:23 pm
                                                                                          Re: A blast from the past Lyudmil Tsvetkov Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:05 am
                                                      Re: Part 2 T. Poppins Tue Oct 31, 2017 3:45 am
                                                            Re: Part 2 T. Poppins Tue Oct 31, 2017 5:30 am
                                                                  Re: Part 2 Lyudmil Tsvetkov Wed Nov 01, 2017 6:33 am
                                                            Re: Part 2 Lyudmil Tsvetkov Tue Oct 31, 2017 5:39 am
      Re: Human versus Machine Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:01 pm
            Mean reviewers Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:41 am
                  Re: Mean reviewers Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:43 am
            Re: Human versus Machine duncan roberts Sun Nov 26, 2017 1:42 am
                  Re: Human versus Machine Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sun Nov 26, 2017 5:14 am
                        Re: Human versus Machine Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sun Nov 26, 2017 8:59 pm
                              Re: Human versus Machine Edsel Apostol Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:54 am
                                    Re: Human versus Machine Jean Baptiste Mon Nov 27, 2017 9:04 am
                                          Re: Human versus Machine Lyudmil Tsvetkov Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:15 pm
                                    Re: Human versus Machine Lyudmil Tsvetkov Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:13 pm
                                          Re: Human versus Machine Henk van den Belt Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:59 am
                                                Re: Human versus Machine Lyudmil Tsvetkov Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:25 pm
                                                Re: Human versus Machine Larry Kaufman Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:11 pm
                                                      Re: Human versus Machine Lyudmil Tsvetkov Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:55 pm
                                                      Re: Human versus Machine Milos Stanisavljevic Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:35 pm
                                                            Re: Human versus Machine Guenther Simon Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:22 pm
                                                                  Re: Human versus Machine Milos Stanisavljevic Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:44 pm
                                                                        Re: Human versus Machine Lyudmil Tsvetkov Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:33 pm
                                                                              Re: Human versus Machine Larry Kaufman Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:11 am
                                                                                    Re: Human versus Machine Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Dec 02, 2017 3:40 pm
                                                                                          Re: Human versus Machine Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Jan 06, 2018 7:01 pm
      Part III Lyudmil Tsvetkov Fri Nov 24, 2017 5:50 am
            Re: Part III Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Nov 25, 2017 5:13 am
                  Re: Part III Lyudmil Tsvetkov Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:02 am
                        Re: Part III Lyudmil Tsvetkov Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:29 pm
      Stockfish and Fischer Lyudmil Tsvetkov Fri Dec 29, 2017 8:32 am
            Re: Stockfish and Fischer Dan Ellwein Fri Dec 29, 2017 6:07 pm
                  Re: Stockfish and Fischer Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:18 am
                        Re: Stockfish and Fischer Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:37 am
                              Re: Stockfish and Fischer Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sun Dec 31, 2017 6:50 am
                        Re: Stockfish and Fischer Bram Mourik Sun Dec 31, 2017 2:47 pm
                              Re: Stockfish and Fischer Lyudmil Tsvetkov Mon Jan 01, 2018 7:14 am
                                    Re: Stockfish and Fischer Lyudmil Tsvetkov Mon Jan 01, 2018 7:30 am
                                    Re: Stockfish and Fischer Bram Mourik Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:19 pm
                                          Re: Stockfish and Fischer Lyudmil Tsvetkov Tue Jan 02, 2018 7:28 am
                                                Re: Stockfish and Fischer Lyudmil Tsvetkov Tue Jan 02, 2018 7:35 am
                                                      Re: Stockfish and Fischer Andreas Strangmüller Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:43 am
                                                            Re: Stockfish and Fischer Bram Mourik Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:29 pm
                                                                  Re: Stockfish and Fischer Lyudmil Tsvetkov Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:58 pm
                                                                        Re: Stockfish and Fischer Lyudmil Tsvetkov Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:03 pm
                                                                              Re: Stockfish and Fischer Lyudmil Tsvetkov Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:05 pm
                                                                              Re: Stockfish and Fischer Andreas Strangmüller Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:49 pm
                                                                                    Re: Stockfish and Fischer Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Jan 06, 2018 7:32 pm
                                                                              Re: Stockfish and Fischer Andreas Strangmüller Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:57 pm
                                                                                    Re: Stockfish and Fischer Bram Mourik Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:01 pm
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish and Fischer Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Jan 06, 2018 7:40 pm
                                                                                    Re: Stockfish and Fischer Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Jan 06, 2018 7:37 pm
                                                            Re: Stockfish and Fischer Lyudmil Tsvetkov Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:53 pm
                                                                  Re: Stockfish and Fischer Andreas Strangmüller Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:15 am
                                                                        Re: Stockfish and Fischer Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Jan 06, 2018 7:48 pm
                                                Re: Stockfish and Fischer Bram Mourik Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:16 pm
                                                      Re: Stockfish and Fischer Lyudmil Tsvetkov Tue Jan 02, 2018 7:38 pm
                                                            Re: Stockfish and Fischer Bram Mourik Tue Jan 02, 2018 7:52 pm
                                                                  Re: Stockfish and Fischer Ulysses P. Tue Jan 02, 2018 9:32 pm
                                                                        Re: Stockfish and Fischer Lyudmil Tsvetkov Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:48 am
                                                                              Re: Stockfish and Fischer Ulysses P. Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:30 am
                                                                                    Re: Stockfish and Fischer Lyudmil Tsvetkov Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:48 pm
                                                                  Re: Stockfish and Fischer Lyudmil Tsvetkov Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:41 am
                                                                        Re: Stockfish and Fischer Lyudmil Tsvetkov Wed Jan 03, 2018 8:33 pm
                                                                              Re: Stockfish and Fischer Bram Mourik Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:10 pm
                        Re: Stockfish and Fischer Andreas Strangmüller Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:30 am
                              Re: Stockfish and Fischer Lyudmil Tsvetkov Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:05 pm
                                    Re: Stockfish and Fischer Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Jan 06, 2018 7:04 pm
                                          Re: Stockfish and Fischer Andreas Strangmüller Sun Jan 07, 2018 7:26 am
                                                Re: Stockfish and Fischer Lyudmil Tsvetkov Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:09 am
                                                      Re: Stockfish and Fischer Andreas Strangmüller Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:01 pm
                                                            Re: Stockfish and Fischer Lyudmil Tsvetkov Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:43 pm
                                          Re: Stockfish and Fischer Bram Mourik Sun Jan 07, 2018 9:59 am
                                                Re: Stockfish and Fischer Adam Kostas Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:12 pm
                                                      Re: Stockfish and Fischer Ulysses P. Sun Jan 07, 2018 2:23 pm
                                                            Re: Stockfish and Fischer jose mº velasco Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:03 pm
                                                                  Re: Stockfish and Fischer Ulysses P. Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:16 pm
                                                            Re: Stockfish and Fischer Lyudmil Tsvetkov Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:19 am
                                                      Re: Stockfish and Fischer Lyudmil Tsvetkov Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:18 am
                                                Re: Stockfish and Fischer Lyudmil Tsvetkov Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:12 am
                                                      Re: Stockfish and Fischer Bram Mourik Mon Jan 08, 2018 12:13 pm
                                                            Re: Stockfish and Fischer Lyudmil Tsvetkov Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:57 pm
                                                                  Re: Stockfish and Fischer Lyudmil Tsvetkov Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:00 pm
                                                                        Re: Stockfish and Fischer Lyudmil Tsvetkov Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:34 pm
                                                                              Re: Stockfish and Fischer Lyudmil Tsvetkov Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:39 pm
                                                                                    Re: Stockfish and Fischer Andreas Strangmüller Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:45 pm
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish and Fischer Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:31 am
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish and Fischer Bram Mourik Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:17 am
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish and Fischer Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Jan 13, 2018 3:45 pm
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish and Fischer Bram Mourik Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:09 pm
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish and Fischer Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:17 pm
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish and Fischer Andreas Strangmüller Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:35 pm
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish and Fischer Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:41 pm
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish and Fischer Andreas Strangmüller Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:49 am
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish and Fischer Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:29 pm
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish and Fischer Andreas Strangmüller Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:06 pm
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish and Fischer Lyudmil Tsvetkov Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:34 pm
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish and Fischer Mike Libanan Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:42 am
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish and Fischer Lyudmil Tsvetkov Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:55 pm
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish and Fischer Andreas Strangmüller Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:47 pm
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish and Fischer Lyudmil Tsvetkov Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:23 pm
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish and Fischer Andreas Strangmüller Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:55 pm
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish and Fischer Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:21 pm
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish and Fischer Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:53 pm
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish and Fischer Bram Mourik Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:09 am
      Re: Human versus Machine Lyudmil Tsvetkov Fri Mar 16, 2018 11:50 am
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