2500! Not such an exaggeration. And how computer chess helps

[hgm]

No one called you a liar.

On the other hand, if it seems that the chess24 classification is a little inflated,
don't you think?

Why can't you be a man and just say "Sorry, I was wrong" instead of constantly altering what your original argument was.

What truly happened was this (direct quotes from the thread):

1. I told Uly the following:

I'm now at 2450 Elo on chess24...making progress.

2. He asked:

Do you have any idea about how Chess24 rating compares to FIDE

3. I responded:

It seems to me, and I might be wrong, that chess24 is about 200 points higher than chess.com, so ideally, I should be able to crack 2500+ on chess24 assuming a good internet connection and sober play

4. You entered and starting making jokes, and when confronted, you feigned innocence and some sort of moral outrage, saying:

I don't understand your attacks, I already gave you some private information.

... if Brendam (sic) claims to be a 2500 ELO, he could be a Grand Master.....
This is not insulting... Oh, my God.

As we can see...

1. Yes, I DID mention that chess24 ratings are inflated, you are not winning any contests by pointing this out.

2. No I NEVER claimed to be 2500 Elo, nor a GM, this was your twisting of my words to discredit me.

Now be a man and admit to the truth of the matter, only a child would keep making excuses.

I like your Bouquet engine, but not your disingenuous way of handing interpersonal communication. One is excellent, one needs improving.

Everything I ever (truly) claimed with regards to ratings and playing strength, has been proven as sincere - everything the TalkChess trolls have tried to throw at me has missed by a mile.

What type of person would you like to be?

A mean-spirited troll, or a nice guy who programs an even nicer engine?



BTW... My estimation of the chess24 inflation is almost completely spot on. chess.com and ICC are about the same, while chess24 is about 200 points higher.

Just for the record, I quoted below what really happened, and was subsequently removed by me for violating the charter. So that everyone can judge for himself how truthful Brendan's accout of events is:

BTW...I'm now at 2450 Elo on chess24...making progress.

Nice jump!

Do you have any idea about how Chess24 rating compares to FIDE? Because you want to reach 2300 FIDE rating? Maybe when you check again you play with a performace of 2360 and yell "oops! overshoot!"

Brendan has a FIDE rating of 2120.
It seems that these scores mentioned are very inflated.

That's what we call a "kickoff" or initial rating.

It is based on about 20 rated games.

The last of which was played in 2009.

And I have improved my chess immeasurably since then.

Anyway Jose...

It "seems" you're a [moderation: Some insults against Jose and TalkChess posters in general removed here]

It seems to me Jose has done very little here he should be sorry about...

[BrendanJNorman]

No one called you a liar.

On the other hand, if it seems that the chess24 classification is a little inflated,
don't you think?

Why can't you be a man and just say "Sorry, I was wrong" instead of constantly altering what your original argument was.

What truly happened was this (direct quotes from the thread):

1. I told Uly the following:

I'm now at 2450 Elo on chess24...making progress.

2. He asked:

Do you have any idea about how Chess24 rating compares to FIDE

3. I responded:

It seems to me, and I might be wrong, that chess24 is about 200 points higher than chess.com, so ideally, I should be able to crack 2500+ on chess24 assuming a good internet connection and sober play

4. You entered and starting making jokes, and when confronted, you feigned innocence and some sort of moral outrage, saying:

I don't understand your attacks, I already gave you some private information.

... if Brendam (sic) claims to be a 2500 ELO, he could be a Grand Master.....
This is not insulting... Oh, my God.

As we can see...

1. Yes, I DID mention that chess24 ratings are inflated, you are not winning any contests by pointing this out.

2. No I NEVER claimed to be 2500 Elo, nor a GM, this was your twisting of my words to discredit me.

Now be a man and admit to the truth of the matter, only a child would keep making excuses.

I like your Bouquet engine, but not your disingenuous way of handing interpersonal communication. One is excellent, one needs improving.

Everything I ever (truly) claimed with regards to ratings and playing strength, has been proven as sincere - everything the TalkChess trolls have tried to throw at me has missed by a mile.

What type of person would you like to be?

A mean-spirited troll, or a nice guy who programs an even nicer engine?



BTW... My estimation of the chess24 inflation is almost completely spot on. chess.com and ICC are about the same, while chess24 is about 200 points higher.

Just for the record, I quoted below what really happened, and was subsequently removed by me for violating the charter. So that everyone can judge for himself how truthful Brendan's accout of events is:

BTW...I'm now at 2450 Elo on chess24...making progress.

Nice jump!

Do you have any idea about how Chess24 rating compares to FIDE? Because you want to reach 2300 FIDE rating? Maybe when you check again you play with a performace of 2360 and yell "oops! overshoot!"

Brendan has a FIDE rating of 2120.
It seems that these scores mentioned are very inflated.

That's what we call a "kickoff" or initial rating.

It is based on about 20 rated games.

The last of which was played in 2009.

And I have improved my chess immeasurably since then.

Anyway Jose...

It "seems" you're a [moderation: Some insults against Jose and TalkChess posters in general removed here]

It seems to me Jose has done very little here he should be sorry about...

So you arbitrarily delete posts of somebody you have previously quarreled with, and then selectively quote from those same posts (which nobody else has access to) at your own discretion?

If that's not abuse of power, what is?

Jesus...

Effectively, you are a message forum equivalent of a corrupt policeman.

When confronted by Uly about these and other double standards, you conveniently ignored him.

Yet, somehow notice every post I write on every corner of this site.

You are the worst tyrant on this site, so don't go pointing your fingers at others, HGM.

[hgm]

There is nothing selective here. Other than the deleted the insults, which are clearly marked, it is an integral copy of the first posting of the deleted series.

Of course there followed some not-too-friendly responses, after you 'opened the hostilities'.

Seems to me you were the aggressor here, just as you are in this thread, where Jose puts in a perfectly polite posting explaining himself, and even apologizing, and you consider it cause to launch an attack on him based on a rather dubious presentation of the facts...

I advise you not to continue on this path.

When confronted by Uly about these and other double standards, you conveniently ignored him.

Note that Harvey had locked the thread before I had the opportunity.

Yet, somehow notice every post I write on every corner of this site.

You are the worst tyrant on this site, so don't go pointing your fingers at others, HGM.

Indeed, that it the job of a moderator. And you are under special scrutiny, as you tend to respond aggressively to anyone that withspeaks you, or points out some facts you do not like. If you have difficulty accepting rules, or their enforcement, just don't post on moderated forums.

[BrendanJNorman]

There is nothing selective here. Other than the deleted the insults, which are clearly marked, it is an integral copy of the first posting of the deleted series.

Of course there followed some not-too-friendly responses, after you 'opened the hostilities'.

B.S.

Belittling somebody by trying to shine a negative light on their words via posting only snarky comments ("must be pretty inflated if he's 2500 hehehe " implicitly puts them down.

You have to be very unintelligent to miss this, and it was this, that "opened hostilities".

It's the same as if I said to you "Well...20 years working on Winboard, must be easily the best GUI by now, huh? Have ChessBase contacted you? "

This is an obvious, yet veiled insult - and if you responded harshly it would make sense.

Exactly the same rhetorical device at work with Jose's initial comment.

I'm sure I don't have to educate you of devices like this, for it is your playground.

The only thing I am doing with Jose here (and with anybody I disagree with) is insisting upon the facts.

If his apology also admitted that he'd deliberately misrepresented my claims, I'd have accepted it and sincerely forgiven him.

But he did not, just created a diversion* via the "four words vs whole book" comments.

Anyway, I'm fine with him now, that's over.

But your continued veiled threats to ban me ("I advise you not to continue on this path") aren't going unnoticed.

Neither are your going to any lengths available to battle and swing your sword upon me - knowing that you have the power of moderator and I have not.

You'd be surprised how many TC citizens have emailed me in support, yet remain silent due to not wanting to "bring the light upon themselves".

You can ban me, and it will make no difference to me.

On other hand, you'll have exposed yourself completely.

*

If you find that you are being worsted, you can make a diversion - that is, you can suddenly begin to talk of something else, as though it had a bearing on the matter in dispute, and afforded an argument against your opponent. - Schopenhauer

[hgm]

Belittling somebody by trying to shine a negative light on their words via posting only snarky comments ("must be pretty inflated if he's 2500 hehehe " implicitly puts them down.

You have to be very unintelligent to miss this, and it was this, that "opened hostilities".

It's the same as if I said to you "Well...20 years working on Winboard, must be easily the best GUI by now, huh? Have ChessBase contacted you? "

This is an obvious, yet veiled insult - and if you responded harshly it would make sense.

If you consider any critical remark or question a 'veiled insult' and legitimate reason for name calling you have a big problem. And not just here...

And your remark about WinBoard seems completely irrelevant. In the first place it is easily the best GUI, and in the second place, I would take zero offense to someone asking that, and just explain him politely why his ideas are misguided. (E.g. because there is no profit in marketing open-source software.)

[MikeB]

A few weeks ago, I mentioned that my current chess goal was to reach a 2300 rating on chess24.com, but when this was achieved, I remarked that 2500 was a realistic target.

Somebody, as is usual on this forum, attacked me, twisted my words (mentioned my FIDE rating, which is irrelevant when talking about a goal for an online rating) and labelled me a liar, saying that I was exaggerating my chess ability.

Instead of saying "hmm that seems a bit high - good luck!", as a normal person would - he called me a liar, twisted my words (changing topic of discussion from online rating to FIDE rating) and mocked me. Standard TalkChess practice.

Nevertheless, and regardless of what cynics say, within a few more games, I hit my target.



How does this relate to computer chess?

I have improved my chess by a few hundred points in the last few years, despite not playing a tournament since 2010, all as a direct result of only training with engines.

This is all as a result of three things.

- Playing against them (this results in a strong law of contrast coming into effect when you return to playing humans - in effect, the human "feels" weaker.)

- Analyzing their games played in my openings (from deliberately created theme tournaments)

- Creating personalities of all playing styles (mostly with Rodent) and seeing how strong a given personality can become, no matter how extreme the settings are.

A direct result of all of this has been a wide broadening of my knowledge of the many varied ways of handling positions, that previously, I'd thought could only be played in a specific way.

Especially ways that a position, even a quiet one, can quickly be turned dynamic in a way that human players quickly drown in.

Of course, the next step is to learn some reliable openings, and enter some LTC tournaments again.

When I have the time.

P.S Here is a game from this morning, where, I blundered my queen in the opening by playing quickly "without looking" - and when the splash of cold water that was the queen loss took effect, I focussed.

The tactical onslaught that came from my opponent's only real blunder, could well have been played by one of my engine "personalities".

[pgn][Event "chess24 online game | blitz"]
[Site "chess24.com"]
[Date "2018.02.24"]
[Round "?"]
[White "ChessnCognac"]
[Black "ArturoMarnCorresa"]
[Result "1-0"]
[BlackCountry "es"]
[BlackElo "2308"]
[ECO "A80"]
[Time "01:03:35"]
[TimeControl "300"]
[WhiteCountry "au"]
[WhiteElo "2486"]

1.d4 f5 2.g4 { [%clk 0:04:57] } 2...fxg4 { [%clk 0:04:56] } 3.h3 { [%clk 0:04:55] } 3...d6 { [%clk 0:04:54] } 4.e4 { [%clk 0:04:50] } 4...c6 { [%clk 0:04:51] } 5.hxg4 { [%clk 0:04:47] } 5...Nf6 { [%clk 0:04:47] } 6.f3 { [%clk 0:04:43] } 6...e5 { [%clk 0:04:43] } 7.g5 { [%clk 0:04:38] } 7...Nfd7 { [%clk 0:04:29] } 8.f4 { [%clk 0:04:09] } 8...exd4 { [%clk 0:04:08] } 9.Qxd4 { [%clk 0:04:01] } 9...Qb6 { [%clk 0:04:06] } 10.Qc3 { [%clk 0:03:50] } 10...d5 { [%clk 0:04:01] } 11.Be2 { [%clk 0:03:40] } 11...Bb4 { [%clk 0:03:58] } 12.Nd2 { [%clk 0:03:24] } 12...Bxc3 { [%clk 0:03:57] } 13.bxc3 { [%clk 0:03:22] } 13...Nc5 { [%clk 0:03:52] } 14.Ngf3 { [%clk 0:02:57] } 14...dxe4 { [%clk 0:03:47] } 15.Ne5 { [%clk 0:02:54] } 15...Bf5 { [%clk 0:03:45] } 16.Ndc4 { [%clk 0:02:49] } 16...Qd8 { [%clk 0:03:36] } 17.Ba3 { [%clk 0:02:42] } 17...Nbd7 { [%clk 0:03:33] } 18.Nd6+ { [%clk 0:02:39] } 18...Kf8 { [%clk 0:03:17] } 19.Nxf5 { [%clk 0:02:35] } 19...b6 { [%clk 0:03:12] } 20.Ng6+ { [%clk 0:02:28] } 20...Kf7 { [%clk 0:02:56] } 21.Bc4+ { [%clk 0:01:55] } 21...Kxg6 { [%clk 0:02:52] } 22.Nh4+ { [%clk 0:01:52] } 22...Kh5 { [%clk 0:02:51] } 23.Be2# { [%clk 0:01:49] } 1-0[/pgn]

The opponent is over 2300 by the way.

Congrats - now go for 2600! 👊 👍

[Ovyron]

Congrats Brendan!

This is all as a result of three things.

- Playing against them (this results in a strong law of contrast coming into effect when you return to playing humans - in effect, the human "feels" weaker.)

- Analyzing their games played in my openings (from deliberately created theme tournaments)

- Creating personalities of all playing styles (mostly with Rodent) and seeing how strong a given personality can become, no matter how extreme the settings are.

A direct result of all of this has been a wide broadening of my knowledge of the many varied ways of handling positions, that previously, I'd thought could only be played in a specific way.

Congrats Brendan! Didn't I tell you you'd do it sooner than you expected?

I reckon this wouldn't have been possible years ago, so something has happened that has allowed chess engines to actually play just like humans, so people taking advantage of them to defeat them would learn themes that would work against humans that present the same themes. This is about patterns on the board to be exploted, and finally engines (or their personalities) are able to present them on the board to be able to train, while before engines of the same relative elo would play nothing like humans.

And about HGM's attacks... *sigh* Yes, they're selective. I clearly remember a post of velmarin where he was accusing you of claiming to be a GM when you were not, and a full launched attack... where is that? did I hallucinate it or did he choose to ommit it?

Nobody came to applaud HGM in the other thread, and I have never seen people support his actions, but Harvey's convenient locking of the thread wouldn't have let us see the truth, if it's that nobody actually likes HGM's actions and he wouldn't have received support from anyone on that thread...

[Ovyron]

And your remark about WinBoard seems completely irrelevant. In the first place it is easily the best GUI, and in the second place, I would take zero offense to someone asking that, and just explain him politely why his ideas are misguided. (E.g. because there is no profit in marketing open-source software.)

This must be the funniest claim I've read all week! Winboard is the best GUI now? Really? This seems like a claim coming from one of Lyudmil's books!

Really, make a poll and ask people if they use Winboard as their main chess GUI. Then ask why the huge majority would rather pay money for something that actually works, rather than dealing with Winboard's terrible design desicions. And check this out to know why developers are blind to such problems.

[syzygy]

Nobody came to applaud HGM in the other thread, and I have never seen people support his actions, but Harvey's convenient locking of the thread wouldn't have let us see the truth, if it's that nobody actually likes HGM's actions and he wouldn't have received support from anyone on that thread...

Because sane people don't want to get pulled into this trash.

I have no doubt that the majority of forum users would wish some action were taken that put an end to this soap opera.

[hgm]

And about HGM's attacks... *sigh* Yes, they're selective. I clearly remember a post of velmarin where he was accusing you of claiming to be a GM when you were not, and a full launched attack... where is that? did I hallucinate it or did he choose to ommit it?

'Hallucinating' is a big word. Let's just say your memory fails you a bit: the first unfriendly remark from Jose appeared after the post I quoted, as an (IMO rather modest) reaction to Brendan's all-out name calling spree. Or perhaps it is your memory that is selective, and magically deletes all misbehavior by Brendan?

But since you insist I can show the post that followed:

BTW...I'm now at 2450 Elo on chess24...making progress.

Nice jump!

Do you have any idea about how Chess24 rating compares to FIDE? Because you want to reach 2300 FIDE rating? Maybe when you check again you play with a performace of 2360 and yell "oops! overshoot!"

Brendan has a FIDE rating of 2120.
It seems that these scores mentioned are very inflated.

That's what we call a "kickoff" or initial rating.

It is based on about 20 rated games.

The last of which was played in 2009.

And I have improved my chess immeasurably since then.

Anyway Jose...

[Spree of insults deleted]

I've just posted a FIDE page entry,
something unquestionable.
It's a way to disassemble liars.
I'm sorry, Grandmaster FIDE..

In any case, it would be easier if people like you didn't exaggerate so much just to become protagonists.
You have an ELO of 2120, and present yourself as a GM.
You talk about profits in a week that others need one or several years, you understand me.

If you also forgot what Brendan replied to this it is too bad, because it is not fit for repeating...