World Computer Chess Championship

[Graham Banks]

From what I've read so far, sadly I can't see anything changing enough to improve the current situation.

[Modern Times]

Start it backwards, announce that the top engines will be there, Houdini, Kodomo, Stockfish... Then look for the best possible operator of those entities.

They would have to check the licence agreements of any engine entered in such a way. It is possible that the author's permission may be required.

[Rebel]

I mean the current (2018) TCEC tournament.

The question remains the same and unanswered.

I did answer it as best as I know. If any program enters and evidence is presented that it violates ICGA tournament rules, it will be investigated and a decision made if it violates those rules. We do not have resources to investigate programs that might not even enter. It is a time consuming process, and it would not be appropriate to ban a program just on someones claims about it.

It's extremely odd coming from you (as ICGA representative and private person) while you know better and have expressed yourself as such.

[Ovyron]

They would have to check the licence agreements of any engine entered in such a way. It is possible that the author's permission may be required.

How does TCEC manage to do it? If it can play in TCEC it should be able to play in the WCCC.

You know what? The easiest solution would be to allow TCEC to host the WCCC and award the WCC Champion title, it's like we already have something that works, and the only problem is TCEC's title is unofficial...

[Graham Banks]

They would have to check the licence agreements of any engine entered in such a way. It is possible that the author's permission may be required.

How does TCEC manage to do it? If it can play in TCEC it should be able to play in the WCCC.

TCEC get the author's permission.

Hiarcs and Shredder (and others) are not in TCEC because the authors don't want them there.

[Ovyron]

TCEC get the author's permission.

Hiarcs and Shredder (and others) are not in TCEC because the authors don't want them there.

Ah, okay, I had no idea about that, thanks.

The community is more divided than I thought then, when if Hiarcs or Shredder become the top engines in the world we go back to the drawing board.

Shredder is the top 4 engine and we'd want to have it in the WCCC, so it turns out my proposed solution doesn't actually work...

[davidlevylondon]

An interesting idea. The ICGA has had, for several years now, a "Best publication" award, for an article published in the ICGA Journal. But since the ICGA exists for the benefit of all games, the award can and often is given for work on games other than Chess.

[mjlef]

I read your post three times, but I still do not understand what changes you want. The only goal I know of for the WCCC it to have the tournament. David has stated here he wants to invite the TCEC winners to participate. But of course anyone can join, limited only by available space and perhaps funds.

Could you state what changes you would make, because I do not understand.

I'll try to be as concise as possible:

Change the goal of the ICGA and the WCCC. The current goal doesn't work, if you set your new goal to something, the changes that need to be made will be obvious, and you'll not even need to ask anyone what they want.

For instance suppose that the ultimate goal of the ICGA becomes:

To award the strongest chess entity of the world the title of WCC Champion.

Then your priorities change. You would go and discuss with the very top people involved how to make them play in your tourney, because waiting for them to apply may not work.

You also don't care about other engines participating, or about the number of them, because it suffices for the top 2 to be there to play for the title, as Nelson said.

"Inviting" the top chess programmers is a good idea, but if they're Robert Houdart and Tord Romstad and they're not interested in playing in the WCCC (Robert isn't even participating in these discussions, Tord thinks participating goes against Stockfish's philosophy) that goes against your goal, so how do you solve it?

Start it backwards, announce that the top engines will be there, Houdini, Kodomo, Stockfish... Then look for the best possible operator of those entities.

TCEC just has those engines, "magically", whatever method that they use can be copied by the WCCC to be able to have the entities on there.

With this ultimate goal, if you suspect there's another entity that would defeat these, you get in direct contact with their authors to get it to play. Imagine if the ICGA contacted Deep Mind and got Alpha Zero into the WCCC, now, that alone may attract enough attention that others will apply just to play the thing.

This is just an example. The changes you need to make depend on your goal.

It seems we all want in this thread for the the WCCC to be succesful and a meaningful title, we just can't agree to the methods to get there.

First, thanks for the clarification. Some info related:

I believe David has invited Stockfish to participate and he continues working on that. Several years ago, someone tried to enter Stockfish agreeing to pay his way, but this was rejected by the Stockfish programmers. As you mention, this seems to be against their philosophy. I do not know why, so best to ask them. WCCC does require someone on the programs "team" attend, but this has been stretched to have book makers and even the daughter of one program operate. WCCC preparation is also more than just making the strongest program, you also need a book well suited to a program, although the Brinfish book looks good for Stockfish.

I do not think we can just find an operator and enter a program without the programmer(s) approval. They might just not want to participate. They could object to things like the opening book used, the operator incorrectly setting options and other human errors. Which version of the program to use.... But most importantly, going against the will of a programmer.

I do agree with trying to find out what can entice a team to enter. That is one of the reasons for this thread. I have tried to encourage Stockfish and other programs to join in the past. And I am sure David has as well. Hence his announcement of an invitation elsewhere in this topic.

We are open for more ideas of how to go about this.

[mjlef]

I mean the current (2018) TCEC tournament.

The question remains the same and unanswered.

I did answer it as best as I know. If any program enters and evidence is presented that it violates ICGA tournament rules, it will be investigated and a decision made if it violates those rules. We do not have resources to investigate programs that might not even enter. It is a time consuming process, and it would not be appropriate to ban a program just on someones claims about it.

It's extremely odd coming from you (as ICGA representative and private person) while you know better and have expressed yourself as such.

I do not understand. "you know better" about what? If you mean I have heard claims some engines are derivatives then yes, I have heard that. But I cannot judge someone merely on a claim. I would have to carefully review the evidence such as disassembled code before I could decide if I believe the claims. In any case, as the programmer for Komodo which is likely to compete in future WCCCs, people would be concerned of a conflict of interest, so I could not be involved in any such investigation.

[Ferdy]

One programmer told me he felt the ICGA was not transparent enough. Towards making it more transparent, I am creating this public thread so anyone interesting in the World Computer Chess Championship, World Software Chess Championship and other events can comment and give feedback. Programmers interested in attending and entering their engines can let us know here. Suggestions for rules changes, people who have ideas for ICGA Journal articles, ways to improve events.... This can be an open forum. So, lets get started.

The International Computer Games Association (ICGA) website is here: icga.org

The dates for the World Computer Chess Championship and events are July 13th-19th. It will be held in Stockholm, Sweden. Details and more information will be placed on the website.

Now, the floor is open. I would be happy to answer questions that I can, and pass on the ones I cannot answer to the appropriate people.

Mark Lefler
ICGA Programmers Representative

Where can I find the tournament rules for this year's tournament? I would like to see the famous rule 2. Is it the same with the one used in 2016? Thank you.