We are reaching the Max Odds that a top engine can give the top 3 GM's

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lkaufman
Posts: 6284
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 6:15 am
Location: Maryland USA
Full name: Larry Kaufman

Re: We are reaching the Max Odds that a top engine can give the top 3 GM's

Post by lkaufman »

amanjpro wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 6:56 am
lkaufman wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 6:49 am
amanjpro wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 6:28 am
lkaufman wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 6:08 am
Chessqueen wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 3:17 am
lkaufman wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 2:33 am
Chessqueen wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 1:17 am
I gave Snowy which is rate 1977 the Black Position starting from this point on against Stockfish 13 NNUE using my Intel 17 4770 3.40 GHZ and snowy beat Stockfish 13 NNUE

448‑449 Snowy 0.2 64-bit 1977 +13 −13 47.2% +19.0 16.9% 2267
51.2%
450 Slibo 0.5.1 1976 +20 −20 50.9% −12.9 18.7% 990
75.2%
451 La Dame Blanche 2.0c 1968 +12 −12 52.1% −17.9 18.6% 2675
59.3%
Since you often quote results for engines in the general ballpark of 2000 elo or so, I wonder if you have any results for any engines against strong human players, either blitz or rapid? I'm working on a better way to estimate human ratings for engines or skill levels of engines, and any data for midrange engines vs. strong human players would be helpful, as long as time limit and number of threads used are specified.
http://pigeonengine.com/
Pigeon has a low CCRL rating of 1800, but is rated about 2000 against humans online at both ICC and FICS, which tell me that you probably have to add 200 Elo to the CCRL rating to get the human equivalent. That's pretty good, you know, for a bird.
You can probably find other Engines rating against human on ICC and FICS or simply offer Knight Odds to human with Dragon2 MCTS ON ICC or FICS.
Thanks, that is quite helpful! I'm surprised that the gap is only 200 elo at this level, I thought it would be more. Do you have any idea what time limit was the average for the human games on which the ratings were based? If you or anyone else knows of other similar online ratings for engines that are based on games with humans, please advise. I'm trying to determine ratings for Skill levels, that is unrelated to the rating of Dragon giving knight odds, about which I already know quite a bit. At about 6' + 1" it was pretty even with Alex Lenderman at knight odds with Armageddon scoring, so 2650 FIDE blitz level.
You can look at the lichess bots, there is a team called selfmade bots mostly for bots at the lower end of the ccrl rating list.

But it is problematic to use it as the source for your research blindly, as most engines there are under heavy development. and the games are not exclusively against humans.

For Zahak, even when he was barely around 1900, he has almost never lost to a human. Most games were bullets though, but some blitzes too.

I know he played a match against a guy around 2200 at some point, it was a 83 games long "match" , and Zahak won 80-3 or something around this, with one and only one loss.... But I'm not sure if you can really extract much conclusion from this though
Thanks, but I don't see a "Zahak" listed on the CCRL rating list, is it on any rating list, perhaps under another name? Could it be that "pigeon" has a rating of 2000 on ICC based just on winning almost every game from 1300 or so rated players, and would actually crush 2000 rated humans most of the time? I just played two games with it on my pc at 2' + 1" and lost both pretty badly; I'm not very strong in blitz nowadays at age 73 but surely not weaker than 2000 (FIDE blitz is 2186).
Zahak is actually listed in CCRL 404 list (that is the 2m+1s TC): https://ccrl.chessdom.com/ccrl/404/cgi/ ... +opponents

Most of the games on lichess are played when Zahak was still around 1900-2000, as he has only today got the latest rating (~2400)
Yes, I see it now, don't know why I didn't see it earlier. When it played the 83 game match you mention, were those 1' bullet games perhaps? Of course humans have no chance at 1' bullet. But if it was blitz or even slow bullet (like 2' + 1") that would be meaningful.
Komodo rules!
amanjpro
Posts: 883
Joined: Sat Mar 13, 2021 1:47 am
Full name: Amanj Sherwany

Re: We are reaching the Max Odds that a top engine can give the top 3 GM's

Post by amanjpro »

lkaufman wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 7:15 am
amanjpro wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 6:56 am
lkaufman wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 6:49 am
amanjpro wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 6:28 am
lkaufman wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 6:08 am
Chessqueen wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 3:17 am
lkaufman wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 2:33 am
Chessqueen wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 1:17 am
I gave Snowy which is rate 1977 the Black Position starting from this point on against Stockfish 13 NNUE using my Intel 17 4770 3.40 GHZ and snowy beat Stockfish 13 NNUE

448‑449 Snowy 0.2 64-bit 1977 +13 −13 47.2% +19.0 16.9% 2267
51.2%
450 Slibo 0.5.1 1976 +20 −20 50.9% −12.9 18.7% 990
75.2%
451 La Dame Blanche 2.0c 1968 +12 −12 52.1% −17.9 18.6% 2675
59.3%
Since you often quote results for engines in the general ballpark of 2000 elo or so, I wonder if you have any results for any engines against strong human players, either blitz or rapid? I'm working on a better way to estimate human ratings for engines or skill levels of engines, and any data for midrange engines vs. strong human players would be helpful, as long as time limit and number of threads used are specified.
http://pigeonengine.com/
Pigeon has a low CCRL rating of 1800, but is rated about 2000 against humans online at both ICC and FICS, which tell me that you probably have to add 200 Elo to the CCRL rating to get the human equivalent. That's pretty good, you know, for a bird.
You can probably find other Engines rating against human on ICC and FICS or simply offer Knight Odds to human with Dragon2 MCTS ON ICC or FICS.
Thanks, that is quite helpful! I'm surprised that the gap is only 200 elo at this level, I thought it would be more. Do you have any idea what time limit was the average for the human games on which the ratings were based? If you or anyone else knows of other similar online ratings for engines that are based on games with humans, please advise. I'm trying to determine ratings for Skill levels, that is unrelated to the rating of Dragon giving knight odds, about which I already know quite a bit. At about 6' + 1" it was pretty even with Alex Lenderman at knight odds with Armageddon scoring, so 2650 FIDE blitz level.
You can look at the lichess bots, there is a team called selfmade bots mostly for bots at the lower end of the ccrl rating list.

But it is problematic to use it as the source for your research blindly, as most engines there are under heavy development. and the games are not exclusively against humans.

For Zahak, even when he was barely around 1900, he has almost never lost to a human. Most games were bullets though, but some blitzes too.

I know he played a match against a guy around 2200 at some point, it was a 83 games long "match" , and Zahak won 80-3 or something around this, with one and only one loss.... But I'm not sure if you can really extract much conclusion from this though
Thanks, but I don't see a "Zahak" listed on the CCRL rating list, is it on any rating list, perhaps under another name? Could it be that "pigeon" has a rating of 2000 on ICC based just on winning almost every game from 1300 or so rated players, and would actually crush 2000 rated humans most of the time? I just played two games with it on my pc at 2' + 1" and lost both pretty badly; I'm not very strong in blitz nowadays at age 73 but surely not weaker than 2000 (FIDE blitz is 2186).
Zahak is actually listed in CCRL 404 list (that is the 2m+1s TC): https://ccrl.chessdom.com/ccrl/404/cgi/ ... +opponents

Most of the games on lichess are played when Zahak was still around 1900-2000, as he has only today got the latest rating (~2400)
Yes, I see it now, don't know why I didn't see it earlier. When it played the 83 game match you mention, were those 1' bullet games perhaps? Of course humans have no chance at 1' bullet. But if it was blitz or even slow bullet (like 2' + 1") that would be meaningful.

I believe it was a mix, but mostly 1 min bullets or maybe less.... Do not forget Zahak runs in Raspberry Pi 3, which is a rather slow machine... And still he hasn't been beaten by a human player (if you discount that match). He hasnt many games against humans though; Probably because, lichess users prefer to play humans not bots?
Chessqueen
Posts: 5685
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 2:16 am
Location: Moving
Full name: Jorge Picado

Re: We are reaching the Max Odds that a top engine can give the top 3 GM's

Post by Chessqueen »

amanjpro wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 7:24 am
lkaufman wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 7:15 am
amanjpro wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 6:56 am
lkaufman wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 6:49 am
amanjpro wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 6:28 am
lkaufman wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 6:08 am
Chessqueen wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 3:17 am
lkaufman wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 2:33 am
Chessqueen wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 1:17 am
I gave Snowy which is rate 1977 the Black Position starting from this point on against Stockfish 13 NNUE using my Intel 17 4770 3.40 GHZ and snowy beat Stockfish 13 NNUE

448‑449 Snowy 0.2 64-bit 1977 +13 −13 47.2% +19.0 16.9% 2267
51.2%
450 Slibo 0.5.1 1976 +20 −20 50.9% −12.9 18.7% 990
75.2%
451 La Dame Blanche 2.0c 1968 +12 −12 52.1% −17.9 18.6% 2675
59.3%
Since you often quote results for engines in the general ballpark of 2000 elo or so, I wonder if you have any results for any engines against strong human players, either blitz or rapid? I'm working on a better way to estimate human ratings for engines or skill levels of engines, and any data for midrange engines vs. strong human players would be helpful, as long as time limit and number of threads used are specified.
http://pigeonengine.com/
Pigeon has a low CCRL rating of 1800, but is rated about 2000 against humans online at both ICC and FICS, which tell me that you probably have to add 200 Elo to the CCRL rating to get the human equivalent. That's pretty good, you know, for a bird.
You can probably find other Engines rating against human on ICC and FICS or simply offer Knight Odds to human with Dragon2 MCTS ON ICC or FICS.
Thanks, that is quite helpful! I'm surprised that the gap is only 200 elo at this level, I thought it would be more. Do you have any idea what time limit was the average for the human games on which the ratings were based? If you or anyone else knows of other similar online ratings for engines that are based on games with humans, please advise. I'm trying to determine ratings for Skill levels, that is unrelated to the rating of Dragon giving knight odds, about which I already know quite a bit. At about 6' + 1" it was pretty even with Alex Lenderman at knight odds with Armageddon scoring, so 2650 FIDE blitz level.
You can look at the lichess bots, there is a team called selfmade bots mostly for bots at the lower end of the ccrl rating list.

But it is problematic to use it as the source for your research blindly, as most engines there are under heavy development. and the games are not exclusively against humans.

For Zahak, even when he was barely around 1900, he has almost never lost to a human. Most games were bullets though, but some blitzes too.

I know he played a match against a guy around 2200 at some point, it was a 83 games long "match" , and Zahak won 80-3 or something around this, with one and only one loss.... But I'm not sure if you can really extract much conclusion from this though
Thanks, but I don't see a "Zahak" listed on the CCRL rating list, is it on any rating list, perhaps under another name? Could it be that "pigeon" has a rating of 2000 on ICC based just on winning almost every game from 1300 or so rated players, and would actually crush 2000 rated humans most of the time? I just played two games with it on my pc at 2' + 1" and lost both pretty badly; I'm not very strong in blitz nowadays at age 73 but surely not weaker than 2000 (FIDE blitz is 2186).
Zahak is actually listed in CCRL 404 list (that is the 2m+1s TC): https://ccrl.chessdom.com/ccrl/404/cgi/ ... +opponents

Most of the games on lichess are played when Zahak was still around 1900-2000, as he has only today got the latest rating (~2400)
Yes, I see it now, don't know why I didn't see it earlier. When it played the 83 game match you mention, were those 1' bullet games perhaps? Of course humans have no chance at 1' bullet. But if it was blitz or even slow bullet (like 2' + 1") that would be meaningful.

I believe it was a mix, but mostly 1 min bullets or maybe less.... Do not forget Zahak runs in Raspberry Pi 3, which is a rather slow machine... And still he hasn't been beaten by a human player (if you discount that match). He hasnt many games against humans though; Probably because, lichess users prefer to play humans not bots?
Here is a list of games played versus human ==> https://lichess.org/@/zahak_engine
chrisw
Posts: 4772
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:28 pm
Location: Midi-Pyrénées
Full name: Christopher Whittington

Re: We are reaching the Max Odds that a top engine can give the top 3 GM's

Post by chrisw »

:)
lkaufman wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 10:54 pm
chrisw wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 10:42 pm
[Event "knight odds match"]
[Site "TalkChess"]
[Date "2021.05.29"]
[Round "1"]
[White "KomodoDragon2, MCTS."]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "75"]
[EventDate "2021.05.20"]
[EventType "match"]

1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 Bg4 5. Be2 Nc6 6. c4 Nb6 7. e6 fxe6 8. O-O
g6 9. a4 a5 10. d5 Bxf3 11. Bxf3 exd5 12. cxd5 Ne5 13. Be4 Bg7 14. f4 Ned7 15.
f5 O-O 16. Ra3 Ne5 17. Rg3 Qe8 18. b3 c6 19. dxc6 bxc6 20. Rf2 e6 21. fxg6 Rxf2
22. gxh7+ Kh8 23. Kxf2 Qf7+ 24. Kg1 Rf8 25. h3 d5 26. Bf3 c5 27. Qe2 Nc6 28.
Bb2 Nd4 29. Qe1 Nd7 30. Bd1 e5 31. Rg5 e4 32. Qg3 Nf3+ 33. Bxf3 Bxb2 34. Rg8+
Kxh7 35. Rg5 Bg7 36. Bh5 Qf6 37. Bg6+ Qxg6 38. Qh4+ Qh6 [/pgn]

Well, I'm thinking in terms of a low-rated but still active GM (say 2400-2450 FIDE) and the standard Rapid time control of 15' + 10", which is roughly 30" per move for an average length game. So some time stress, but not severe. With Armageddon rule, I think this might be about balanced.

Qh6

Inverted backslash character btw
[pgn]
[Event "knight odds match"]
[Site "TalkChess"]
[Date "2021.05.29"]
[Round "1"]
[White "KomodoDragon2, MCTS."]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Kaufman,Larry"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "77"]
[EventDate "2021.05.20"]
[EventType "match"]

1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 Bg4 5. Be2 Nc6 6. c4 Nb6 7. e6 fxe6 8. O-O
g6 9. a4 a5 10. d5 Bxf3 11. Bxf3 exd5 12. cxd5 Ne5 13. Be4 Bg7 14. f4 Ned7 15.
f5 O-O 16. Ra3 Ne5 17. Rg3 Qe8 18. b3 c6 19. dxc6 bxc6 20. Rf2 e6 21. fxg6 Rxf2
22. gxh7+ Kh8 23. Kxf2 Qf7+ 24. Kg1 Rf8 25. h3 d5 26. Bf3 c5 27. Qe2 Nc6 28.
Bb2 Nd4 29. Qe1 Nd7 30. Bd1 e5 31. Rg5 e4 32. Qg3 Nf3+ 33. Bxf3 Bxb2 34. Rg8+
Kxh7 35. Rg5 Bg7 36. Bh5 Qf6 37. Bg6+ Qxg6 38. Qh4+ Qh6 39. Rh5 Nf6 [/pgn]

Nf6
Chessqueen
Posts: 5685
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 2:16 am
Location: Moving
Full name: Jorge Picado

Re: We are reaching the Max Odds that a top engine can give the top 3 GM's

Post by Chessqueen »

chrisw wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 8:29 am :)
lkaufman wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 10:54 pm
chrisw wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 10:42 pm
[Event "knight odds match"]
[Site "TalkChess"]
[Date "2021.05.29"]
[Round "1"]
[White "KomodoDragon2, MCTS."]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "75"]
[EventDate "2021.05.20"]
[EventType "match"]

1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 Bg4 5. Be2 Nc6 6. c4 Nb6 7. e6 fxe6 8. O-O
g6 9. a4 a5 10. d5 Bxf3 11. Bxf3 exd5 12. cxd5 Ne5 13. Be4 Bg7 14. f4 Ned7 15.
f5 O-O 16. Ra3 Ne5 17. Rg3 Qe8 18. b3 c6 19. dxc6 bxc6 20. Rf2 e6 21. fxg6 Rxf2
22. gxh7+ Kh8 23. Kxf2 Qf7+ 24. Kg1 Rf8 25. h3 d5 26. Bf3 c5 27. Qe2 Nc6 28.
Bb2 Nd4 29. Qe1 Nd7 30. Bd1 e5 31. Rg5 e4 32. Qg3 Nf3+ 33. Bxf3 Bxb2 34. Rg8+
Kxh7 35. Rg5 Bg7 36. Bh5 Qf6 37. Bg6+ Qxg6 38. Qh4+ Qh6 [/pgn]

Well, I'm thinking in terms of a low-rated but still active GM (say 2400-2450 FIDE) and the standard Rapid time control of 15' + 10", which is roughly 30" per move for an average length game. So some time stress, but not severe. With Armageddon rule, I think this might be about balanced.

Qh6

Inverted backslash character btw
[pgn]
[Event "knight odds match"]
[Site "TalkChess"]
[Date "2021.05.29"]
[Round "1"]
[White "KomodoDragon2, MCTS."]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Kaufman,Larry"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "77"]
[EventDate "2021.05.20"]
[EventType "match"]

1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 Bg4 5. Be2 Nc6 6. c4 Nb6 7. e6 fxe6 8. O-O
g6 9. a4 a5 10. d5 Bxf3 11. Bxf3 exd5 12. cxd5 Ne5 13. Be4 Bg7 14. f4 Ned7 15.
f5 O-O 16. Ra3 Ne5 17. Rg3 Qe8 18. b3 c6 19. dxc6 bxc6 20. Rf2 e6 21. fxg6 Rxf2
22. gxh7+ Kh8 23. Kxf2 Qf7+ 24. Kg1 Rf8 25. h3 d5 26. Bf3 c5 27. Qe2 Nc6 28.
Bb2 Nd4 29. Qe1 Nd7 30. Bd1 e5 31. Rg5 e4 32. Qg3 Nf3+ 33. Bxf3 Bxb2 34. Rg8+
Kxh7 35. Rg5 Bg7 36. Bh5 Qf6 37. Bg6+ Qxg6 38. Qh4+ Qh6 39. Rh5 Nf6 [/pgn]

Nf6
It is time to resign, there is no need to continue or the Komodo Dragon will come out biting you out of your computer since he is so Mad :lol: :mrgreen: :lol:
lkaufman
Posts: 6284
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 6:15 am
Location: Maryland USA
Full name: Larry Kaufman

Re: We are reaching the Max Odds that a top engine can give the top 3 GM's

Post by lkaufman »

chrisw wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 8:29 am
[pgn]
[Event "knight odds match"]
[Site "TalkChess"]
[Date "2021.05.29"]
[Round "1"]
[White "KomodoDragon2, MCTS."]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Kaufman,Larry"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "77"]
[EventDate "2021.05.20"]
[EventType "match"]

1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 Bg4 5. Be2 Nc6 6. c4 Nb6 7. e6 fxe6 8. O-O
g6 9. a4 a5 10. d5 Bxf3 11. Bxf3 exd5 12. cxd5 Ne5 13. Be4 Bg7 14. f4 Ned7 15.
f5 O-O 16. Ra3 Ne5 17. Rg3 Qe8 18. b3 c6 19. dxc6 bxc6 20. Rf2 e6 21. fxg6 Rxf2
22. gxh7+ Kh8 23. Kxf2 Qf7+ 24. Kg1 Rf8 25. h3 d5 26. Bf3 c5 27. Qe2 Nc6 28.
Bb2 Nd4 29. Qe1 Nd7 30. Bd1 e5 31. Rg5 e4 32. Qg3 Nf3+ 33. Bxf3 Bxb2 34. Rg8+
Kxh7 35. Rg5 Bg7 36. Bh5 Qf6 37. Bg6+ Qxg6 38. Qh4+ Qh6 39. Rh5 Nf6 [/pgn]

Nf6
[pgn]
[Event "knight odds match"]
[Site "TalkChess"]
[Date "2021.05.29"]
[Round "1"]
[White "KomodoDragon2, MCTS."]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Kaufman,Larry"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "81"]
[EventDate "2021.05.20"]
[EventType "match"]

1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 Bg4 5. Be2 Nc6 6. c4 Nb6 7. e6 fxe6 8. O-O
g6 9. a4 a5 10. d5 Bxf3 11. Bxf3 exd5 12. cxd5 Ne5 13. Be4 Bg7 14. f4 Ned7 15.
f5 O-O 16. Ra3 Ne5 17. Rg3 Qe8 18. b3 c6 19. dxc6 bxc6 20. Rf2 e6 21. fxg6 Rxf2
22. gxh7+ Kh8 23. Kxf2 Qf7+ 24. Kg1 Rf8 25. h3 d5 26. Bf3 c5 27. Qe2 Nc6 28.
Bb2 Nd4 29. Qe1 Nd7 30. Bd1 e5 31. Rg5 e4 32. Qg3 Nf3+ 33. Bxf3 Bxb2 34. Rg8+
Kxh7 35. Rg5 Bg7 36. Bh5 Qf6 37. Bg6+ Qxg6 38. Qh4+ Qh6 39. Rh5 Nf6 40. Rxh6+ [/pgn]
Komodo rules!
lkaufman
Posts: 6284
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 6:15 am
Location: Maryland USA
Full name: Larry Kaufman

Re: We are reaching the Max Odds that a top engine can give the top 3 GM's

Post by lkaufman »

Chessqueen wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 8:11 am
amanjpro wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 7:24 am
lkaufman wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 7:15 am
amanjpro wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 6:56 am
lkaufman wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 6:49 am
I believe it was a mix, but mostly 1 min bullets or maybe less.... Do not forget Zahak runs in Raspberry Pi 3, which is a rather slow machine... And still he hasn't been beaten by a human player (if you discount that match). He hasnt many games against humans though; Probably because, lichess users prefer to play humans not bots?
Here is a list of games played versus human ==> https://lichess.org/@/zahak_engine
I don't see the games vs. humans separated from bot games. How many games has Zahak played there vs. humans over 1800 at blitz (not bullet)? What was the score? Also, how many times faster is the ccrl reference i7 machine compared to that Raspberry Pi 3? I think your results suggest that against humans, playing blitz (say 3' + 2" average), Zahak would perform several hundred elo above its CCRL blitz rating, not just a couple hundred, which is what I've been saying, but perhaps there aren't enough relevant human games to say?
Komodo rules!
amanjpro
Posts: 883
Joined: Sat Mar 13, 2021 1:47 am
Full name: Amanj Sherwany

Re: We are reaching the Max Odds that a top engine can give the top 3 GM's

Post by amanjpro »

lkaufman wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 4:43 pm
Chessqueen wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 8:11 am
amanjpro wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 7:24 am
lkaufman wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 7:15 am
amanjpro wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 6:56 am
lkaufman wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 6:49 am
I believe it was a mix, but mostly 1 min bullets or maybe less.... Do not forget Zahak runs in Raspberry Pi 3, which is a rather slow machine... And still he hasn't been beaten by a human player (if you discount that match). He hasnt many games against humans though; Probably because, lichess users prefer to play humans not bots?
Here is a list of games played versus human ==> https://lichess.org/@/zahak_engine
I don't see the games vs. humans separated from bot games. How many games has Zahak played there vs. humans over 1800 at blitz (not bullet)? What was the score? Also, how many times faster is the ccrl reference i7 machine compared to that Raspberry Pi 3? I think your results suggest that against humans, playing blitz (say 3' + 2" average), Zahak would perform several hundred elo above its CCRL blitz rating, not just a couple hundred, which is what I've been saying, but perhaps there aren't enough relevant human games to say?
That is exactly my point, there are not many relevant games against human against bots at least not on lichess. People usually detest them, as they are hard to beat and annoyingly accurate
lkaufman
Posts: 6284
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 6:15 am
Location: Maryland USA
Full name: Larry Kaufman

Re: We are reaching the Max Odds that a top engine can give the top 3 GM's

Post by lkaufman »

amanjpro wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 4:54 pm
lkaufman wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 4:43 pm
Chessqueen wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 8:11 am
amanjpro wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 7:24 am
lkaufman wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 7:15 am
amanjpro wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 6:56 am
lkaufman wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 6:49 am
I believe it was a mix, but mostly 1 min bullets or maybe less.... Do not forget Zahak runs in Raspberry Pi 3, which is a rather slow machine... And still he hasn't been beaten by a human player (if you discount that match). He hasnt many games against humans though; Probably because, lichess users prefer to play humans not bots?
Here is a list of games played versus human ==> https://lichess.org/@/zahak_engine
I don't see the games vs. humans separated from bot games. How many games has Zahak played there vs. humans over 1800 at blitz (not bullet)? What was the score? Also, how many times faster is the ccrl reference i7 machine compared to that Raspberry Pi 3? I think your results suggest that against humans, playing blitz (say 3' + 2" average), Zahak would perform several hundred elo above its CCRL blitz rating, not just a couple hundred, which is what I've been saying, but perhaps there aren't enough relevant human games to say?
That is exactly my point, there are not many relevant games against human against bots at least not on lichess. People usually detest them, as they are hard to beat and annoyingly accurate
I know there aren't many, but are there any at all (blitz vs human over 1800)?
Komodo rules!
Chessqueen
Posts: 5685
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 2:16 am
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Full name: Jorge Picado

Re: We are reaching the Max Odds that a top engine can give the top 3 GM's

Post by Chessqueen »

lkaufman wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 4:59 pm
amanjpro wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 4:54 pm
lkaufman wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 4:43 pm
Chessqueen wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 8:11 am
amanjpro wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 7:24 am
lkaufman wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 7:15 am
amanjpro wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 6:56 am
lkaufman wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 6:49 am
I believe it was a mix, but mostly 1 min bullets or maybe less.... Do not forget Zahak runs in Raspberry Pi 3, which is a rather slow machine... And still he hasn't been beaten by a human player (if you discount that match). He hasnt many games against humans though; Probably because, lichess users prefer to play humans not bots?
Here is a list of games played versus human ==> https://lichess.org/@/zahak_engine
I don't see the games vs. humans separated from bot games. How many games has Zahak played there vs. humans over 1800 at blitz (not bullet)? What was the score? Also, how many times faster is the ccrl reference i7 machine compared to that Raspberry Pi 3? I think your results suggest that against humans, playing blitz (say 3' + 2" average), Zahak would perform several hundred elo above its CCRL blitz rating, not just a couple hundred, which is what I've been saying, but perhaps there aren't enough relevant human games to say?
That is exactly my point, there are not many relevant games against human against bots at least not on lichess. People usually detest them, as they are hard to beat and annoyingly accurate
I know there aren't many, but are there any at all (blitz vs human over 1800)?

I noticed that Stockfish 13 NNUE can easily beat Snowy rate 1977 by CCRL with a Knight Odds and if we estimate a human rating by ICC to equal 2177 we need an engine of at least 2050 by CCRL for either Stockfish 13 NNUE or Komodo Dragon2 MCTS at least Draw. Do NOT forget that I already tested Snowy as Black (with the position from Chrisw vs Komodo Dragon2 MCTS) versus Stockfish 13 NNUE after move 20 and Snowy beat stockfish 13 :roll:

[pgn]
[Event "Computer chess game"]
[Site "MININT-UB2PIMJ"]
[Date "2021.05.30"]
[Round "1-0"]
[White "Stockfish_21052415_x64_bmi2"]
[Black "Snowy_0_2_x64"]
[Result "*"]
[BlackElo "1977"]
[Time "09:01:41"]
[WhiteElo "3400"]
[TimeControl "1800+1"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[Termination "normal"]
[PlyCount "176"]
[WhiteType "program"]
[BlackType "program"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bd6 4. O-O Nf6 5. d4 exd4 6. e5 Bxe5 7. Nxe5
Nxe5 8. Re1 Qe7 9. f4 Nxc4 10. Rxe7+ Kxe7 11. Qe2+ Ne3 12. Bxe3 dxe3 13.
Qxe3+ Kd8 14. Qb3 d5 15. Rd1 Rb8 16. Rxd5+ Nxd5 17. Qxd5+ Bd7 18. Qxf7 Re8
19. Qxg7 Re7 20. Qh8+ Be8 21. g4 Kd7 22. Qd4+ Kc8 23. Qf6 Rd7 24. Qh8 Kd8
25. Qf6+ Re7 26. Qd4+ Bd7 27. f5 b6 28. Qd5 c6 29. Qd6 Rc8 30. g5 c5 31. f6
Rf7 32. h4 Rc6 33. Qd5 Ke8 34. h5 c4 35. Qe5+ Kf8 36. Qf4 a5 37. Kh2 Be8
38. a3 a4 39. Kg1 b5 40. Kh2 Re6 41. Kg3 Kg8 42. Qf5 Bd7 43. Qd5 Kf8 44.
Qc5+ Kg8 45. Qd5 Re3+ 46. Kg2 Re6 47. Kg1 Kf8 48. Qc5+ Ke8 49. Kh2 Bc6 50.
Kg3 Kd8 51. Qb6+ Ke8 52. Qb8+ Kd7 53. Qa7+ Ke8 54. Qb8+ Kd7 55. Qg8 Re3+
56. Kf4 Bd5 57. Qb8 Re2 58. Qxb5+ Bc6 59. Qc5 h6 60. Kf5 Be4+ 61. Ke5 hxg5
62. Qd6+ Ke8 63. Qe6+ Kd8 64. Kd4 Rd7+ 65. Kc5 Rc7+ 66. Kb4 Rb7+ 67. Ka5
Ra7+ 68. Kb5 Rb7+ 69. Ka6 c3 70. f7 Rxf7 71. Qxf7 cxb2 72. Qf6+ Kc8 73.
Qh8+ Kd7 74. Qxb2 Rd2 75. Qg7+ Ke6 76. c4 Rd6+ 77. Ka5 Rd7 78. Qxg5 Rc7 79.
c5 Ra7+ 80. Kb6 Rb7+ 81. Ka6 Rb3 82. h6 Rxa3 83. c6 Bd3+ 84. Ka5 Bf5 85. c7
Rc3 86. Qg8+ Kd6 87. Qf8+ Ke6 88. Qc8+ Kd6 {Black resigns} *[/pgn]
Last edited by Chessqueen on Sun May 30, 2021 5:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.