so what is a fair GM handicap vs Rybka?

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an even match GM vs Rybka

pawn and move
12
52%
two pawns
3
13%
two pawns and move
3
13%
knight
3
13%
knight and move
2
9%
 
Total votes: 23

NKOTB

so what is a fair GM handicap vs Rybka?

Post by NKOTB » Wed Mar 07, 2007 12:01 pm

In NFL football, games are made theoretically even by give one team points. Example, a bad team may be given a 21 point handicap to make the contest even.
.
with similar time controls to the current match, what handicap would the GM need so the match is considered even?

Harvey Williamson

Re: so what is a fair GM handicap vs Rybka?

Post by Harvey Williamson » Wed Mar 07, 2007 12:13 pm

NKOTB wrote:In NFL football, games are made theoretically even by give one team points. Example, a bad team may be given a 21 point handicap to make the contest even.
.
with similar time controls to the current match, what handicap would the GM need so the match is considered even?
Maybe none of the above. Give the engine a time handicap and then we get a real game of Chess.

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mschribr
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Re: so what is a fair GM handicap vs Rybka?

Post by mschribr » Wed Mar 07, 2007 12:21 pm

Harvey Williamson wrote: Maybe none of the above. Give the engine a time handicap and then we get a real game of Chess.
I agree. The best handicap is to cut the computer’s time in 1/2 or maybe 1/4.

Uri Blass
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Re: so what is a fair GM handicap vs Rybka?

Post by Uri Blass » Wed Mar 07, 2007 12:26 pm

mschribr wrote:
Harvey Williamson wrote: Maybe none of the above. Give the engine a time handicap and then we get a real game of Chess.
I agree. The best handicap is to cut the computer’s time in 1/2 or maybe 1/4.
I disagree.

I am even not sure if this is a handicap for the computer because the human can think less on the computer time.

rybka with 1/4 of the time beat easily chess programs that performed at 2700 level or better in tournaments.

I remember that old tiger and old shredder already got performance of more than 2700 some years ago.

Uri

Harvey Williamson

Re: so what is a fair GM handicap vs Rybka?

Post by Harvey Williamson » Wed Mar 07, 2007 12:31 pm

Uri Blass wrote:
mschribr wrote:
Harvey Williamson wrote: Maybe none of the above. Give the engine a time handicap and then we get a real game of Chess.
I agree. The best handicap is to cut the computer’s time in 1/2 or maybe 1/4.
I disagree.

I am even not sure if this is a handicap for the computer because the human can think less on the computer time.

rybka with 1/4 of the time beat easily chess programs that performed at 2700 level or better in tournaments.

I remember that old tiger and old shredder already got performance of more than 2700 some years ago.

Uri
Hi Uri,

Good point.

Another way might be to make the engines play on old weak hardware?!

Harvey

Uri Blass
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Re: so what is a fair GM handicap vs Rybka?

Post by Uri Blass » Wed Mar 07, 2007 12:36 pm

Harvey Williamson wrote:
Uri Blass wrote:
mschribr wrote:
Harvey Williamson wrote: Maybe none of the above. Give the engine a time handicap and then we get a real game of Chess.
I agree. The best handicap is to cut the computer’s time in 1/2 or maybe 1/4.
I disagree.

I am even not sure if this is a handicap for the computer because the human can think less on the computer time.

rybka with 1/4 of the time beat easily chess programs that performed at 2700 level or better in tournaments.

I remember that old tiger and old shredder already got performance of more than 2700 some years ago.

Uri
Hi Uri,

Good point.

Another way might be to make the engines play on old weak hardware?!

Harvey
It is possible but my guess is that even the hardware of 1994 may be too fast for the GM's.

You may need to go back to 1990 in order to find hardware that is slow enough to make the match even.

JonP01

Re: so what is a fair GM handicap vs Rybka?

Post by JonP01 » Wed Mar 07, 2007 12:55 pm

That first game was a bit of a massacre wasn't it? :? I agree that I think in the future, "even" matches will be possible by handicapping the hardware. Soon enough there will be "vintage" PC enthusiasts running chess engines, since running them on such vintage hardware will be the only way we humans can have any comprehension of the moves they are making!

Time handicaps are really pointless these days. Apart from giving the human opponent no respite between moves, even on my slow computer, CM10 (much weaker than Rybka of course) still would play around the same level at blitz as a 2500 player would at classical time controls.

Larry Kaufman has already pointed out that if Rybka was playing at fast blitz speed it would still be superior to all humans thinking at slow time controls bar Super GMs.

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Mike S.
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Re: so what is a fair GM handicap vs Rybka?

Post by Mike S. » Wed Mar 07, 2007 1:04 pm

I think, the normal concept of fairness cannot be applied to odds games or to clock handicap games, anyway. Also, I dislike the idea of "old" hardware... The "Chess: Man vs. Machine" topic adresses people interested in chess, up-to-date chess software and up-to-date computers.

Another idea would be a search depth limit for the (main) depths, or whatever it's called by the programmers. Nominal depth? I am aware that an engine A's search to depth x will of course be different to an engine B's search to the same depth (not talking of evals etc.). Nevertheless, it would be a hardware independant setting. For example, as a first rough idea, I can imagine depth 14 until the endgame, and depth 16 or 18 with 8 pieces or less on the board (and ponder off).

Considering the search extensions, I am sure 14 plies are strong enough for interesting matches. If an engine has a somewhat riskier pruning and reaches this depth more quickly than another engine, in return the human opponent will have less time to think while it's the computer to move - and vice versa.

I have only randomly chosen 14 as an example... I suggest it should be a depth which most good and latest engines on typical computers reach in ~20 seconds (being aware that there may be big differences between the time consumption of different engines for that depth).

By that, off-the-shelf computers will be sufficient and the total time requirement will be kept small(er), but at the same time I think strong chess is guaranteed and it would be challenging for any GM. Also, there could be competition between different engines in the sense of: Which one scores best against GMs, at depth x?

But I'm not sure if it's any better than the other proposals...
Regards, Mike

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mschribr
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Re: so what is a fair GM handicap vs Rybka?

Post by mschribr » Wed Mar 07, 2007 1:48 pm

Uri Blass wrote:
mschribr wrote:
Harvey Williamson wrote: Maybe none of the above. Give the engine a time handicap and then we get a real game of Chess.
I agree. The best handicap is to cut the computer’s time in 1/2 or maybe 1/4.
I disagree.

I am even not sure if this is a handicap for the computer because the human can think less on the computer time.

rybka with 1/4 of the time beat easily chess programs that performed at 2700 level or better in tournaments.

I remember that old tiger and old shredder already got performance of more than 2700 some years ago.

Uri
Which tournament did rybka win with 1/4 of the time?
Computer vs computer is not the same as man vs computer.
The old tiger and old shredder performance of more than 2700 were not at handicap time.
Has there been man vs computer with time handicap?
Before we write off time handicap, lets have a man vs computer at ¼ the time and see what happens.
Mark

ologist

Re: so what is a fair GM handicap vs Rybka?

Post by ologist » Wed Mar 07, 2007 1:53 pm

In my opinion, I think there needs to be several matches with different engines vs GMs with these same pawn handicaps before we determine what 'Rybka' handicap is needed. I am sure H11, DF10, etc. would be crushed by a GM with these pawn handicaps, right ... especially if they are specially programmed versions to deal with such handicaps?

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