so what is a fair GM handicap vs Rybka?

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an even match GM vs Rybka

pawn and move
12
52%
two pawns
3
13%
two pawns and move
3
13%
knight
3
13%
knight and move
2
9%
 
Total votes: 23

DomLeste
Posts: 221
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 3:53 pm

Re: so what is a fair GM handicap vs Rybka?

Post by DomLeste » Thu Mar 08, 2007 7:53 pm

Like harvey said best solution is using old hardware. As i stated when kramnik lost to deep fritz.

My condiitons..

1. Book only up to 10 moves
2. Found a old processor 1GHz ;)
3. Endgame databases limited to 4 pieces

No need for material or time handicaps please! Limit the technology like other sports have done to even up the competition.

Uri Blass
Posts: 8827
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:37 pm
Location: Tel-Aviv Israel

Re: so what is a fair GM handicap vs Rybka?

Post by Uri Blass » Thu Mar 08, 2007 9:15 pm

mschribr wrote:
Uri Blass wrote:
mschribr wrote:
Uri Blass wrote:
mschribr wrote:
Harvey Williamson wrote: Maybe none of the above. Give the engine a time handicap and then we get a real game of Chess.
I agree. The best handicap is to cut the computer’s time in 1/2 or maybe 1/4.
I disagree.

I am even not sure if this is a handicap for the computer because the human can think less on the computer time.

rybka with 1/4 of the time beat easily chess programs that performed at 2700 level or better in tournaments.

I remember that old tiger and old shredder already got performance of more than 2700 some years ago.

Uri
Which tournament did rybka win with 1/4 of the time?
Computer vs computer is not the same as man vs computer.
The old tiger and old shredder performance of more than 2700 were not at handicap time.
Has there been man vs computer with time handicap?
Before we write off time handicap, lets have a man vs computer at ¼ the time and see what happens.
Mark
These tournaments were at relatively slower hardware than the hardware that rybka is using(tiger used only one processor) and I have no reason to think that computer vs computer is different than computer vs human.

If rybka with 1/4 of the time can beat tiger when both use one processor then I have no reason to think that the situation is going to be different against humans and that tiger is going to perform better against them.

Uri
Can you tell me where I can find more information about these time handicap tournaments?
When and where did they take place?
How many games were played?
What was the score?
Mark
You do not understand
The games were not handicapped time game but based on the fact that the hardware today is faster the programs did not play better than they can play today with 1/4 of the time with the best hardware so giving programs 1/4 of the time today is not going to make them weaker and only going to make the human weaker because the humans will have less time to think on the opponent move.

Uri

ozziejoe
Posts: 811
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 9:07 pm

Re: so what is a fair GM handicap vs Rybka?

Post by ozziejoe » Thu Mar 08, 2007 9:46 pm

ologist wrote:..... just the same as you could never get strong enough to lift an elephant over your head with one arm. In theory there is no limit to the expansion of your myocytes, but no matter how much weight training occurs a man will never be able to lift a grown elephant over his head.
My dear christopher, have you so little faith in science? Already, we at university are begining to bread an elephant with a beagle. The result will be what we like to call a "beaglephant."" I can assure you that you will be able to lift this creature over your head, even with one arm

User avatar
mschribr
Posts: 223
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 3:23 am
Location: new york ny usa

Re: so what is a fair GM handicap vs Rybka?

Post by mschribr » Thu Mar 08, 2007 11:07 pm

Uri Blass wrote:
mschribr wrote:
Uri Blass wrote:
mschribr wrote:
Uri Blass wrote:
mschribr wrote:
Harvey Williamson wrote: Maybe none of the above. Give the engine a time handicap and then we get a real game of Chess.
I agree. The best handicap is to cut the computer’s time in 1/2 or maybe 1/4.
I disagree.

I am even not sure if this is a handicap for the computer because the human can think less on the computer time.

rybka with 1/4 of the time beat easily chess programs that performed at 2700 level or better in tournaments.

I remember that old tiger and old shredder already got performance of more than 2700 some years ago.

Uri
Which tournament did rybka win with 1/4 of the time?
Computer vs computer is not the same as man vs computer.
The old tiger and old shredder performance of more than 2700 were not at handicap time.
Has there been man vs computer with time handicap?
Before we write off time handicap, lets have a man vs computer at ¼ the time and see what happens.
Mark
These tournaments were at relatively slower hardware than the hardware that rybka is using(tiger used only one processor) and I have no reason to think that computer vs computer is different than computer vs human.

If rybka with 1/4 of the time can beat tiger when both use one processor then I have no reason to think that the situation is going to be different against humans and that tiger is going to perform better against them.

Uri
Can you tell me where I can find more information about these time handicap tournaments?
When and where did they take place?
How many games were played?
What was the score?
Mark
You do not understand
The games were not handicapped time game but based on the fact that the hardware today is faster the programs did not play better than they can play today with 1/4 of the time with the best hardware so giving programs 1/4 of the time today is not going to make them weaker and only going to make the human weaker because the humans will have less time to think on the opponent move.

Uri
Uri, I am not sure I understand. I think shorter sentences would be better.

Are you saying the games were not time handicapped? Today’s computers are faster. Giving the program ¼ the time on faster computers, it still plays as good as strong slower computer with full time. So it’s worse for the human. The human will get less time thinking on opponents time.

On second thought I don’t think making the computer weaker makes for an interesting match. More interesting would be to play full strength and removing a piece handicap.
Mark

Harvey Williamson

Re: so what is a fair GM handicap vs Rybka?

Post by Harvey Williamson » Thu Mar 08, 2007 11:54 pm

Uri Blass wrote:
mschribr wrote:
Harvey Williamson wrote: Maybe none of the above. Give the engine a time handicap and then we get a real game of Chess.
I agree. The best handicap is to cut the computer’s time in 1/2 or maybe 1/4.
I disagree.

I am even not sure if this is a handicap for the computer because the human can think less on the computer time.

rybka with 1/4 of the time beat easily chess programs that performed at 2700 level or better in tournaments.

I remember that old tiger and old shredder already got performance of more than 2700 some years ago.

Uri

http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=3718

Looks like a time handicap match has just been played!?

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