http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=3802
Why?? Why??
Jouni
The Ultimate Computer Chess Challenge !?!?
Moderators: hgm, Rebel, chrisw
-
- Posts: 1480
- Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 5:33 am
Re: The Ultimate Computer Chess Challenge !?!?
Although it's supported by FIDE, ICGA, Levy and ChessBase: It's just an exhibition match of two engines, which aren't Top-5 anymore. I think we should not pay too much attention. The various rating lists can provide comparisons for much more than just six games.
It is a shame that the loser wil receive 40,000 $ while stronger engines like Rybka, Hiarcs, Loop, Shredder etc. cannot participate.
There are ICGA members on this message board. What do YOU think? If it's not ok, what are you going to do?
Nothing...
It is a shame that the loser wil receive 40,000 $ while stronger engines like Rybka, Hiarcs, Loop, Shredder etc. cannot participate.
There are ICGA members on this message board. What do YOU think? If it's not ok, what are you going to do?
Nothing...
Regards, Mike
-
- Posts: 10281
- Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:37 am
- Location: Tel-Aviv Israel
Re: The Ultimate Computer Chess Challenge !?!?
Rybka is without doubt stronger engine.Mike S. wrote:Although it's supported by FIDE, ICGA, Levy and ChessBase: It's just an exhibition match of two engines, which aren't Top-5 anymore. I think we should not pay too much attention. The various rating lists can provide comparisons for much more than just six games.
It is a shame that the loser wil receive 40,000 $ while stronger engines like Rybka, Hiarcs, Loop, Shredder etc. cannot participate.
There are ICGA members on this message board. What do YOU think? If it's not ok, what are you going to do?
Nothing...
I have serious doubts about engines like loop or shredder.
Junior has better ssdf rating than shredder
Uri
-
- Posts: 1480
- Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 5:33 am
Re: The Ultimate Computer Chess Challenge !?!?
Uri, please be serious. I guess you know also CCRL and CEGT ratings, not only SSDF.
Junior is a good, interesting and respectable engine! - But it has always been overestimated because of misleading ICGA tournament results.
Junior is a good, interesting and respectable engine! - But it has always been overestimated because of misleading ICGA tournament results.
Regards, Mike
-
- Posts: 1627
- Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:35 pm
Re: The Ultimate Computer Chess Challenge !?!?
SSDF-21/04/2007:Mike S. wrote:Uri, please be serious. I guess you know also CCRL and CEGT ratings, not only SSDF.
Junior is a good, interesting and respectable engine! - But it has always been overestimated because of misleading ICGA tournament results.
It is a shame that the loser wil receive 40,000 $ while stronger engines like Rybka, Hiarcs, Loop, Shredder etc. cannot participate.
Code: Select all
3 Hiarcs 11.1 2871 51 -51 189 52% 2858
4 Junior 10.1 2867 32 -30 563 72% 2702
5 Junior 10 2851 25 -24 874 70% 2703
8 Shredder 10 2830 25 -24 857 69% 2689
Latest public Hiarcs seems not so stronger than the latest public Junior which seems stronger than the almost latest public Shredder.
The CEGT-40/20 Best versions:
Does not confirm your: "It's just an exhibition match of two engines, which aren't Top-5 anymore" since Deep Fritz 10 is inside top 5.
Re: The Ultimate Computer Chess Challenge !?!?
I would like to see a match Rybka-Hydra. It doesn't have to be organized by FIDE, although it might be considered the absolute world championship of chess.Uri Blass wrote:Rybka is without doubt stronger engine.
Enrique
-
- Posts: 10281
- Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:37 am
- Location: Tel-Aviv Israel
Re: The Ultimate Computer Chess Challenge !?!?
I think that the difference is too small to claim which engine is betterMike S. wrote:Uri, please be serious. I guess you know also CCRL and CEGT ratings, not only SSDF.
Junior is a good, interesting and respectable engine! - But it has always been overestimated because of misleading ICGA tournament results.
when you consider that the better engine is dependent on the opening line
From CEGT 40/120
6 Deep Shredder 10 x64 2CPU 2858 17 17 925 51.5 % 2847 40.5 %
8 List 11.64 2CPU 2849 20 20 700 47.6 % 2866 40.0 %
12 Deep Junior 10 2CPU 2833 19 19 844 49.0 % 2840 33.8 %
I think that difference of less than 30 elo can be dependent on the opening book that is used and the question if ponder on or ponder off is used.
It is not the fault of CEGT and CCRL but it is impossible to claim without doubt which engine is better when the difference is small regardless of the number of games because engine X can be better in one opening when engine Y can be better in another opening and I see no objective way to decide how many games to play with every opening.
Uri
Re: The Ultimate Computer Chess Challenge !?!?
Since when Deep Fritz 10 isn't in Top 5 anymore???Mike S. wrote:Although it's supported by FIDE, ICGA, Levy and ChessBase: It's just an exhibition match of two engines, which aren't Top-5 anymore.
-
- Posts: 492
- Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2006 4:12 am
Re: The Ultimate Computer Chess Challenge !?!?
Since it was surpassed by Rybka, Zap!Chess, Hiarcs, Naum, Deep Shredder and LoopMP. At least in our study: CCRL 40/40. (Not to mention Deep Junior which is 1 point ahead of Deep Fritz right now in our 40/40 list).rdan1987 wrote:Since when Deep Fritz 10 isn't in Top 5 anymore???
Though, in our blitz rating list Deep Fritz is #5 currently.
Best,
Kirill
Re: The Ultimate Computer Chess Challenge !?!?
Uri, please note that the question "which engine is best" is of a metaphysical nature, and thus it is nonsensical to try and answer it in an absolute sense. All you can really do is making various tests and making various predictions (=creating an Elo list).Uri Blass wrote:I think that the difference is too small to claim which engine is betterMike S. wrote:Uri, please be serious. I guess you know also CCRL and CEGT ratings, not only SSDF.
Junior is a good, interesting and respectable engine! - But it has always been overestimated because of misleading ICGA tournament results.
when you consider that the better engine is dependent on the opening line
From CEGT 40/120
6 Deep Shredder 10 x64 2CPU 2858 17 17 925 51.5 % 2847 40.5 %
8 List 11.64 2CPU 2849 20 20 700 47.6 % 2866 40.0 %
12 Deep Junior 10 2CPU 2833 19 19 844 49.0 % 2840 33.8 %
I think that difference of less than 30 elo can be dependent on the opening book that is used and the question if ponder on or ponder off is used.
It is not the fault of CEGT and CCRL but it is impossible to claim without doubt which engine is better when the difference is small regardless of the number of games because engine X can be better in one opening when engine Y can be better in another opening and I see no objective way to decide how many games to play with every opening.
Uri
When people say engine A is better than engine B, it is thus useful to instead read this as "under these specific conditions, A seems to perform better than B".
Once this is understood, it becomes irrelevant to make observations like "yes, but B may perform better than A under these different conditions, so it is not certain that A is stronger than B". Nobody claimed anything about these different conditions!
Compare to: Which is the most spectacular goal scored at a football world cup? Here it is EASY to see that it is nonsensical to try and answer this in an absolute sense. With a little practice, it becomes equally easy to see that it is pointless to try and answer questions like "which is the stronger engine" in an absolute sense. Specific conditions and metrics always have to be read and understood between the lines.