Test position

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IWB
Posts: 1539
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 1:02 pm

Test position

Post by IWB » Tue Apr 24, 2007 8:37 pm

Hi all

Nice position. Some show a very confident 0.00 just a few a high eval for white. I think its won for white. Is it a Zugzwang/Nullmove problem ?!

[D]7k/4p2P/1p1p1b1P/p1nP3K/P1P5/4B3/2B5/8 b - -


Have fun
Ingo

User avatar
Eelco de Groot
Posts: 4148
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2006 1:40 am
Location: Groningen

Re: Test position

Post by Eelco de Groot » Tue Apr 24, 2007 9:07 pm

IWB wrote:Hi all

Nice position. Some show a very confident 0.00 just a few a high eval for white. I think its won for white. Is it a Zugzwang/Nullmove problem ?!

[D]7k/4p2P/1p1p1b1P/p1nP3K/P1P5/4B3/2B5/8 b - -


Have fun
Ingo
Deep Sjeng 2.5 is certain about its eval and move. The trial version is installed here as an UCI engine in Shredder 9.1 GUI, single core Athlon 2009 MHz, the output is in Dutch because that is how I set output in Shredder GUI.

Deep Sjeng behaves like a fully fledged UCI engine even in the trial version, has access here to 5 men Nalimov tablebases. The output in its own GUI is a bit limited; just one line and I can't copy the engine output, the Deep Sjeng GUI that comes with the program seems more suited for playing games against the human owner of the program.


7k/4p2P/1p1p1b1P/p1nP3K/P1P5/4B3/2B5/8 b - -

Engine: Deep Sjeng 2.5 (256 MB)
gemaakt door Gian-Carlo Pascutto

3/06 0:00 -4.12-- 1...e6 (413)

3/08 0:00 -4.16 1...e6 2.Kg6 exd5 3.Kxf6 dxc4 (552)

3/08 0:00 -3.80 1...Le5 2.Kg6 Lc3 (740)

3/08 0:00 -3.72 1...e5 2.dxe6 Pxe6 3.Lxb6 (874)

4/08 0:00 -3.72 1...e5 2.dxe6 Pxe6 3.Lxb6 (1.184)

4/09 0:00 -3.51 1...Pd7 2.Lf5 Pc5 3.Kg6 Pxa4 (2.195)

5/09 0:00 -3.51 1...Pd7 2.Lf5 Pc5 3.Kg6 Pxa4 (2.627)

6/12 0:00 -3.48 1...Pd7 2.Lf5 Pc5 3.Kg6 Pxa4 4.Lg4 (4.828)

7/14 0:00 -3.24 1...Pd7 2.Lf2 Pe5 3.Lxb6 Pxc4 4.Lf2 Le5 (10.519)

8/14 0:00 -3.37 1...Pd7 2.Lf2 Le5 3.Kg6 Pf8+ 4.Kf7 Pxh7
5.Lxb6 Pg5+ 6.Kxe7 (16.950)

9/15 0:00 -3.18 1...Pd7 2.Lf2 Lc3 3.Lf5 Pf6+ 4.Kg6 Pxh7
5.Lxb6 Pf8+ 6.Kf7 (37.228)

10/16 0:00 -3.06 1...Pd7 2.Lf2 Lc3 3.Lf5 Pc5 4.Lh4 Pxa4
5.Lxe7 Pb2 6.Lxd6 Pxc4 (62.677)

11/17 0:00 -3.06 1...Pd7 2.Lf2 Lc3 3.Lf5 Pc5 4.Lh4 Pxa4
5.Lxe7 Pb2 6.Lxd6 Pxc4 (91.002)

12/21 0:00 -3.03 1...Pd7 2.Lf2 Lc3 3.Lf5 Pc5 4.Lh4 Lf6
5.Lxf6+ exf6 6.Lc2 f5 7.Lxf5 Pxa4 (178.538)

13/23 0:00 -3.04 1...Pd7 2.Lf2 Lc3 3.Lg1 Le5 4.Kg5 Lc3
5.Kf5 Pf8 6.Lxb6 Kxh7 7.Kg5+ Kg8
8.Lf5 Ld2+ (389.550)

14/23 0:00 -3.04 1...Pd7 2.Lf2 Lc3 3.Lg1 Le5 4.Kg5 Lc3
5.Le3 Pf8 6.Lxb6 Pxh7+ 7.Kg6 Kg8
8.Lf5 Pf8+ 9.Kg5 Ld2+ (536.173)

15/24 0:00 -3.10 1...Pd7 2.Lf2 Lc3 3.Lg1 Le5 4.Kg5 Lc3
5.Le3 Pe5 6.Lxb6 Pxc4 7.Lc7 Ld2+
8.Kh5 Pe5 9.Lf5 (830.449)

16/26 0:01 -3.09 1...Pd7 2.Lf2 Pc5 3.Kg6 Pd7 4.Kf5 Pf8
5.Kg4 Pd7 6.Kf4 Lc3 7.Le3 Pe5 8.Lxb6 Ld2+
9.Le3 Lxe3+ 10.Kxe3 Pxc4+ 11.Kd4 (1.607.687) 958

17/29 0:02 -3.10 1...Pd7 2.Lf2 Pc5 3.Kg6 Pd7 4.Kf5 Pf8
5.Kg4 Pd7 6.Kf4 Lc3 7.Ke3 Lf6 8.Ke2 Pc5
9.Kf3 Le5 10.Kg4 Lc3 11.Kf3 (2.086.280) 962

18/29 0:03 -3.03 1...Pd7 2.Lf2 Pc5 3.Kg6 Pd7 4.Kf5 Pf8
5.Kg4 Pd7 6.Kf4 Lc3 7.Ke3 Lf6 8.Ke2 Lg5
9.Lf5 Pe5 10.Lxb6 Lxh6 11.Lxa5 Pxc4 (3.330.998) 977

19/31 0:04 -3.03 1...Pd7 2.Lf2 Pc5 3.Kg6 Pd7 4.Kf5 Pf8
5.Kg4 Pd7 6.Kf4 Lc3 7.Ke3 Lf6 8.Ke2 Lg5
9.Lf5 Pe5 10.Lxb6 Lxh6 11.Lxa5 Pxc4
12.Le1 (4.535.171) 980 edb:2

20/34 0:06 -3.03 1...Pd7 2.Lf2 Pc5 3.Kg6 Pd7 4.Kf5 Pf8
5.Kg4 Pd7 6.Kf4 Lc3 7.Ke3 Lf6 8.Ke2 Lg5
9.Lf5 Pe5 10.Lxb6 Lxh6 11.Lxa5 Pxc4
12.Lc3+ (6.516.120) 991 edb:2

21/34 0:10 -3.03 1...Pd7 2.Lf2 Pc5 3.Kg6 Pd7 4.Kf5 Pf8
5.Kg4 Pd7 6.Kf4 Lc3 7.Kf5 Pf8 8.Kg4 Pxh7
9.Lf5 Pf6+ 10.Kg5 Kg8 11.Lxb6 Ph7+
12.Kg4 Pf8 13.Kf3 Ld2 (10.307.960) 1009 edb:3

22/37 0:15 -3.03 1...Pd7 2.Lf2 Pc5 3.Kg6 Pd7 4.Kf5 Pf8
5.Kg4 Pd7 6.Kf4 Lc3 7.Kf5 Pf8 8.Kg4 Pxh7
9.Lf5 Pf8 10.Lxb6 Kg8 11.Le3 Le5
12.Kg5 Ph7+ (15.633.155) 998 edb:24

23/40 0:28 -3.04 1...Pd7 2.Lf2 Pc5 3.Kg6 Pd7 4.Kf5 Pf8
5.Kg4 Pd7 6.Kf4 Lc3 7.Ke3 Lf6 8.Ke2 Lg5
9.Lf5 Pf6 10.Lxb6 Pxh7 11.Ld4+ Lf6
12.Le3 Pg5 13.Kd3 Kg8 (28.860.047) 1009 edb:56

24/40 0:50 -3.04 1...Pd7 2.Lf2 Pc5 3.Kg6 Pd7 4.Kf5 Pc5
5.Kf4 Le5+ 6.Kg4 Lc3 7.Le3 Lf6 8.Kg3 Le5+
9.Kf3 Lf6 10.Kf4 Pd7 11.Kf5 Pe5
12.Ke6 Pxc4 13.Lf2 Lg5 14.Ld3 Pe5 (51.238.691) 1012 edb:149

25/44 1:11 -3.04 1...Pd7 2.Lf2 Pc5 3.Kg6 Pd7 4.Kf5 Pc5
5.Kf4 Le5+ 6.Kg4 Lc3 7.Le3 Lf6 8.Kg3 Le5+
9.Kf3 Lf6 10.Kf4 Le5+ 11.Kg5 Lf6+
12.Kg6 Pd7 13.Kf7 Pe5+ 14.Ke6 Pxc4 (72.240.742) 1008 edb:409

26/46 1:49 -3.04 1...Pd7 2.Lf2 Pc5 3.Kg6 Pd7 4.Kf5 Pc5
5.Kf4 Le5+ 6.Kg4 Lc3 7.Le3 Lf6 8.Kg3 Le5+
9.Kh4 Lc3 10.Kh5 Lf6 11.Kg4 Pd7
12.Kf5 Pe5 13.Ke6 Pxc4 14.Lf2 Lg5 (108.998.519) 998
edb:1.091

27/58 2:57 -3.04 1...Pd7 2.Lf2 Pc5 3.Kg6 Pd7 4.Kf5 Pc5
5.Kf4 Le5+ 6.Kg4 Lc3 7.Le3 Lf6 8.Kg3 Le5+
9.Kh4 Lc3 10.Kh5 Lf6 11.Kg4 Pd7
12.Kh3 Pc5 13.Kg2 Le5 14.Ld2 e6 (174.661.748) 985
edb:3.583

28/61 4:34 -3.04 1...Pd7 2.Lf2 Pc5 3.Kg6 Pd7 4.Kf5 Pc5
5.Kf4 Le5+ 6.Kg4 Lc3 7.Le3 Lf6 8.Kg3 Le5+
9.Kh4 Lc3 10.Kh5 Lf6 11.Kg4 Pd7
12.Kf4 Pc5 13.Lg1 Lc3 14.Kf3 Le5 (266.562.556) 970
edb:6.353

29/61 11:52 -3.12 1...Pd7 2.Lf2 Pc5 3.Kg6 Pd7 4.Kf7 Pe5+
5.Ke6 Pxc4 6.Lf5 Pe5 7.Lxb6 Pc4
8.Lf2 Pd2 9.Le3 Pf3 10.Kd7 Pe5+
11.Kc7 Pc4 12.Lf4 Pb2 13.Lc2 Pc4
14.Le4 Le5 (676.612.709) 950
edb:19.955

Eelco

Christopher Conkie
Posts: 6068
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2006 7:34 pm
Location: Scotland
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Re: Test position

Post by Christopher Conkie » Tue Apr 24, 2007 9:12 pm

No.

It's an "I want to sell Shredder problem".

It's a very bad position......for you.

If Shredder thinks this is a draw, I would worry for you....but it would not last long.....in fact the moment has already past.....quickly......

[D]7k/4p2P/1p1p1b1P/p1nP3K/P1P5/4B3/2B5/8 b - - 0 1

Alarm 0.93.1 x32:
1 00:00.009 5 5 -5.86 Nxa4 Bxa4 Kxh7
1 00:00.030 9 9 -5.84 Nb7
1 00:00.039 13 13 -5.75 Nd7
1 00:00.049 17 17 -5.68 Ne6
1 00:00.060 21 21 -5.57 Ne4
1 00:00.068 33 33 -5.52 Be5
1 00:00.078 49 49 -5.22 e6
1 00:00.088 55 55 -4.65 e5
1 00:00.100 57 57 -4.65 e5
2 00:00.103 168 168 -5.78 e5 Kg6
2 00:00.115 296 296 -5.32 e6 dxe6 Nxe6
2 00:00.126 303 303 -5.32 e6 dxe6 Nxe6
3 00:00.130 397 397 -5.32 e6 dxe6 Nxe6
3 00:00.134 1.288 1.288 -4.82 Be5
3 00:00.147 1.671 1.671 -4.78 Be5 Kg6 Nxa4
3 00:00.151 1.928 1.928 -4.78 Be5 Kg6 Nxa4
4 00:00.155 3.259 325.900 -4.92 Nd7 Bg5 Ne5 Bxf6+ exf6
4 00:00.170 4.052 405.200 -4.92 Nd7 Bg5 Ne5 Bxf6+ exf6
5 00:00.174 5.002 500.200 -4.42 Nd7
5 00:00.178 9.017 901.700 -3.84 Nd7 Kg4 Nf8 Bxb6 Nxh7
5 00:00.182 13.576 678.800 -3.84 Nd7 Kg4 Nf8 Bxb6 Nxh7
6 00:00.186 42.057 841.140 -4.77 Nd7 Bf5 Nf8 Bxb6 Bc3 Kg5 Nxh7+ Kg6
6 00:00.196 49.933 832.216 -4.77 Nd7 Bf5 Nf8 Bxb6 Bc3 Kg5 Nxh7+ Kg6
7 00:00.200 70.496 783.288 -4.66 Nd7 Bf5 Nc5 Kg6 Nxa4 Be6 Nc5
7 00:00.362 131.796 506.907 -4.66 Nd7 Bf5 Nc5 Kg6 Nxa4 Be6 Nc5
8 00:00.366 205.052 640.787 -4.69 Nd7 Bf5 Nc5 Kg6 Nxa4 Be6 Nc5 Bg4
8 00:00.410 279.051 697.627 -4.69 Nd7 Bf5 Nc5 Kg6 Nxa4 Be6 Nc5 Bg4
9 00:01.963 837.252 881.317 -4.19 Nd7
9 00:01.018 900.902 891.982 -4.19 Nd7 Bf5
9 00:01.168 1.063.325 924.630 -4.19 Nd7 Bf5
10 00:01.696 1.672.913 995.781 -4.62 Nd7 Bf5 Nc5 Kg6 Nxa4 Bg4 Nc5 Bc1 Bd4 Bd2
10 00:02.474 2.512.092 1.021.175 -4.62 Nd7 Bf5 Nc5 Kg6 Nxa4 Bg4 Nc5 Bc1 Bd4 Bd2
11 00:05.697 5.912.293 1.037.244 -4.27 Nd7 Bf2 Bc3 Bf5 Nf6+ Kg6 Nxh7 Bxb6 Bd2 Bd4+ Nf6 h7 Bf4 Be6
11 00:07.403 7.673.255 1.020.379 -4.27 Nd7 Bf2 Bc3 Bf5 Nf6+ Kg6 Nxh7 Bxb6 Bd2 Bd4+ Nf6 h7 Bf4 Be6
12 00:13.568 14.752.276 1.071.334 -4.61 Nd7 Bf2 Nc5 Bg1 e5 dxe6 Nxe6 Bxb6 Bc3 c5 dxc5

I'd trust you if I were you.

Got any more of these "positions"?

User avatar
Eelco de Groot
Posts: 4148
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2006 1:40 am
Location: Groningen

Re: Test position

Post by Eelco de Groot » Tue Apr 24, 2007 10:49 pm

Game played out by Deep Sjeng just as a test, with a fairly convincing final position although Rybka may still have trouble winning this :P :


[Event "Maiden Voyage, 15 minutes +10 seconds Fischer bonus"]
[Site "Groningen"]
[Date "2007.04.25"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Deep Sjeng 2.5"]
[Black "Deep Sjeng 2.5"]
[Result "*"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "7k/4p2P/1p1p1b1P/p1nP3K/P1P5/4B3/2B5/8 b - -"]

1... Nd7 {-3.18/23 1:20m} 2. Bf2 {+3.18/31 1:01m} Nc5
{-3.18/28 56s} 3. Kg6 {+3.18/29 58s} Nd7 {-3.18/27 38s}
4. Kf7 {+3.18/27 54s} Ne5+ {-3.20/25 26s} 5. Ke6 {+3.20/26
51s} Nxc4 {-3.49/23 25s} 6. Bg1 {+3.60/25 49s} Nd2
{-3.89/24 21s} 7. Bxb6 {+4.15/24 33s} Nc4 {-4.30/24 48s}
8. Bd8 {+4.33/24 28s} Bg5 {-4.33/24 45s} 9. Bxe7 {+4.89/24
43s} Bxh6 {-5.29/21 26s} 10. Bd3 {+5.52/21 27s} Nb2
{-7.54/21 35s} 11. Bf6+ {+15.77/23 30s} Bg7 {+15.77/1 0s}
12. Bxb2 {+16.14/24 26s} Bxb2 {-M24/24 3:41m} 13. Kxd6
{+M24/24 37s} Kg7 {-M24/22 27s} 14. Kd7 {+M23/22 17s} Bf6
{-M22/21 13s} 15. d6 {+M22/21 21s} Be5 {-M21/21 25s}
16. Ke7 {+M20/21 34s} Bf6+ {-M19/20 19s} 17. Ke8 {+M18/21
27s} Kh8 {-M17/21 12s} 18. d7 {+M17/20 13s} Kg7 {-M16/20
23s} 19. d8=R {+M15/19 31s} Bxd8 {-M14/20 23s} 20. Kxd8
{+M14/20 25s} Kh8 {-M13/20 9s} 21. Kc7 {+M13/21 29s} Kg7
{+M-986/1 0s} 22. Kb6 {+M12/18 26s} Kh8 {-M9/18 8s}
23. Kxa5 {+M9/19 26s} Kg7 {+M-990/1 0s} 24. Kb6 {+M8/17 4s}
Kh8 {-M7/18 20s} 25. a5 {+M7/15 0s} Kg7 {+M-992/1 0s}
26. a6 {+M6/13 0s} Kf6 {-M5/30 9s} 27. h8=Q+ {+M5/11 0s}
Ke7 {-M4/32 0s} 28. Qe5+ {+M4/9 0s} Kf8 {-M3/32 0s} 29. Bg6
{+M3/7 0s} Kg8 {+M-996/1 0s} 30. a7 {+M2/5 0s} Kf8
{+M-997/1 0s} 31. a8=Q# {+M1/3 0s} *

[D]Q4k2/8/1K4B1/4Q3/8/8/8/8 b - -

IWB
Posts: 1539
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 1:02 pm

Re: Test position

Post by IWB » Tue Apr 24, 2007 10:55 pm

Thx 4 the game.

I tried with Deep Sjeng 2.5 too and I am not sure now but I think to remember it shows a 0.00. My problem is that I can not verify this because the engine is no longer working. I passed the 0.00am line and after one day of installation it tells me my 30 day period has expired. I will check tomorw.

But, yes, your game came to the same conclusion as I.

Thx and bye
Ingo

IWB
Posts: 1539
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 1:02 pm

Re: Test position

Post by IWB » Tue Apr 24, 2007 11:02 pm

Christopher Conkie wrote:No.

It's an "I want to sell Shredder problem".

It's a very bad position......for you.

If Shredder thinks this is a draw, I would worry for you....but it would not last long.....in fact the moment has already past.....quickly......
????????????????

Whats up - what have I done wrong? I post a position, nothing else, and you ... I have not mentioned ANY engine why are you so agressive in your tone? Can you please give me your email? I might consider to ask in future if it is appropriate to post a message here.

And you can be happy, Shredder never thinks that it is a draw so you dont have to worry, not even for a moment.

Have a nice day and kind regards
Ingo

IWB
Posts: 1539
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 1:02 pm

Re: Test position

Post by IWB » Tue Apr 24, 2007 11:32 pm

IWB wrote:Hi all

Nice position. Some show a very confident 0.00 just a few a high eval for white. I think its won for white. Is it a Zugzwang/Nullmove problem ?!

[D]7k/4p2P/1p1p1b1P/p1nP3K/P1P5/4B3/2B5/8 b - -


Have fun
Ingo
Hello again

Prior to my post I allways analysed from the game of course, so when I tried to analyse the position out of my previous post again I found out what the problem is:

With Nd7 for black a position is reached for the third time in the game - but with different rights for the next move (black/white).

Because UCI is sending the whole game to the engine some interpret this as 3rd repetition but some see that there are different rights to move.

What is the official FIDE rule saying about this?

Here is the complete game for those who want to try by themself:


[Event "Chess game"]
[Site "Somewhere"]
[Date "2007.04.23"]
[Round "?"]
[White "An Engine"]
[Black "Another one"]
[WhiteElo "2500"]
[BlackElo "2500"]
[ECO "B39"]
[Result "1-0"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 g6 5. c4 Nf6 6. Nc3
Bg7 7. Be3 Ng4 8. Qxg4 Nxd4 9. Qd1 Nc6 10. Qd2 Qa5 11. Rc1
O-O 12. Be2 d6 13. O-O Be6 14. f4 Rac8 15. b3 b6 16. Bf3
Nb4 17. Nd5 Bxd5 18. exd5 Rc7 19. a4 Na6 20. Qc2 Qb4 21. f5
Nc5 22. Bd1 a5 23. Kh1 Be5 24. Bd2 Qa3 25. Rb1 Nd7 26. Bg4
Nf6 27. Bh3 Kh8 28. fxg6 hxg6 29. Rf3 Qc5 30. Be6 Kg7
31. Rh3 Rh8 32. Bxf7 Rxh3 33. Qxg6+ Kh8 34. gxh3 Qf2
35. Qg2 Qxg2+ 36. Kxg2 Ne4 37. Be3 Rc8 38. Be6 Rb8 39. h4
Nc5 40. h5 Rf8 41. h4 Kg7 42. h6+ Kh8 43. Bg4 Rg8 44. Kh3
Rf8 45. h5 Ne4 46. Kg2 Rg8 47. Kf3 Ng5+ 48. Ke2 Ne4 49. Rg1
Nc5 50. Bf5 Rxg1 51. Bxg1 Nxb3 52. Bc2 Bd4 53. Bh2 Nc5
54. Bf4 Bf6 55. Be3 Kg8 56. h7+ Kh8 57. Kf2 Nd7 58. Ke1 Bb2
59. Ke2 Bc3 60. Bg1 Bb2 61. Bf2 Bf6 62. Be3 Nc5 63. Kf2 Nd7
64. Kg3 Nc5 65. Kf4 Kg7 66. Kg4 Kh8 67. h6 Nd7 68. Kh5 Nc5
69. Bf2 Nd7 70. Bg1 Nc5 71. Be3 Nd7 72. Bg1 Nc5 73. Be3 1-0


Btw it was a 60 + 15 game

Bye
Ingo

PS: For those who dont like my postings, please ignore me!

Christopher Conkie
Posts: 6068
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2006 7:34 pm
Location: Scotland
Contact:

Re: Test position

Post by Christopher Conkie » Wed Apr 25, 2007 12:05 am

IWB wrote:
Christopher Conkie wrote:No.

It's an "I want to sell Shredder problem".

It's a very bad position......for you.

If Shredder thinks this is a draw, I would worry for you....but it would not last long.....in fact the moment has already past.....quickly......
????????????????

Whats up - what have I done wrong? I post a position, nothing else, and you ... I have not mentioned ANY engine why are you so agressive in your tone? Can you please give me your email? I might consider to ask in future if it is appropriate to post a message here.

And you can be happy, Shredder never thinks that it is a draw so you dont have to worry, not even for a moment.

Have a nice day and kind regards
Ingo
Correct me if I am wrong but you said.....
Some show a very confident 0.00 just a few a high eval for white.
You have not done anything wrong except that you have not said who "some" are and who the "just a few" were.

What's the point if you dont tell anyone which engines?

The "few" as you describe them, are rather many......if not all. Nor have you told us why nullmove or zugszwang may be the issue.

You have not supplied any analysis Ingo. You can't blame me for thinking you posted for another reason.

Please explain what it is you find interesting about this position supported by some evidence.

IWB
Posts: 1539
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 1:02 pm

Re: Test position

Post by IWB » Wed Apr 25, 2007 6:35 am

Christopher Conkie wrote:
IWB wrote:
Christopher Conkie wrote:No.

It's an "I want to sell Shredder problem".

It's a very bad position......for you.

If Shredder thinks this is a draw, I would worry for you....but it would not last long.....in fact the moment has already past.....quickly......
????????????????

Whats up - what have I done wrong? I post a position, nothing else, and you ... I have not mentioned ANY engine why are you so agressive in your tone? Can you please give me your email? I might consider to ask in future if it is appropriate to post a message here.

And you can be happy, Shredder never thinks that it is a draw so you dont have to worry, not even for a moment.

Have a nice day and kind regards
Ingo
Correct me if I am wrong but you said.....
Some show a very confident 0.00 just a few a high eval for white.
You have not done anything wrong except that you have not said who "some" are and who the "just a few" were.

What's the point if you dont tell anyone which engines?

The "few" as you describe them, are rather many......if not all. Nor have you told us why nullmove or zugszwang may be the issue.

You have not supplied any analysis Ingo. You can't blame me for thinking you posted for another reason.

Please explain what it is you find interesting about this position supported by some evidence.
Your problem is just that you obviously allways think people are bad. That is pitiable!

Regarding the asked analyses read this: http://216.25.93.108/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 43&t=13370

Up till now I found only two top UCI engines who are giving a positiv score but a lot with a 0.00 when given the whole game.

Have a nice week
Ingo

IWB
Posts: 1539
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 1:02 pm

Re: Test position

Post by IWB » Wed Apr 25, 2007 6:43 am

Hello

In the meantime I got information that according to the fide rules the same moving right have to be applied as well. In the german fide rule set it is chapter 9.2. The moving right are explicitly mentioned in it! I dont know if it is the same chapeter in other languages.

This means: Every engine that is given this whole game should show a high positiv score for white. Every engine that shows 0.00 or better that wants to play Nd7 and shows 0.00 (and maybe stops working there) has a bug!

Nice find and out of a real game!

Bye
Ingo

IWB wrote:
IWB wrote:Hi all

Nice position. Some show a very confident 0.00 just a few a high eval for white. I think its won for white. Is it a Zugzwang/Nullmove problem ?!

[D]7k/4p2P/1p1p1b1P/p1nP3K/P1P5/4B3/2B5/8 b - -


Have fun
Ingo
Hello again

Prior to my post I allways analysed from the game of course, so when I tried to analyse the position out of my previous post again I found out what the problem is:

With Nd7 for black a position is reached for the third time in the game - but with different rights for the next move (black/white).

Because UCI is sending the whole game to the engine some interpret this as 3rd repetition but some see that there are different rights to move.

What is the official FIDE rule saying about this?

Here is the complete game for those who want to try by themself:


[Event "Chess game"]
[Site "Somewhere"]
[Date "2007.04.23"]
[Round "?"]
[White "An Engine"]
[Black "Another one"]
[WhiteElo "2500"]
[BlackElo "2500"]
[ECO "B39"]
[Result "1-0"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 g6 5. c4 Nf6 6. Nc3
Bg7 7. Be3 Ng4 8. Qxg4 Nxd4 9. Qd1 Nc6 10. Qd2 Qa5 11. Rc1
O-O 12. Be2 d6 13. O-O Be6 14. f4 Rac8 15. b3 b6 16. Bf3
Nb4 17. Nd5 Bxd5 18. exd5 Rc7 19. a4 Na6 20. Qc2 Qb4 21. f5
Nc5 22. Bd1 a5 23. Kh1 Be5 24. Bd2 Qa3 25. Rb1 Nd7 26. Bg4
Nf6 27. Bh3 Kh8 28. fxg6 hxg6 29. Rf3 Qc5 30. Be6 Kg7
31. Rh3 Rh8 32. Bxf7 Rxh3 33. Qxg6+ Kh8 34. gxh3 Qf2
35. Qg2 Qxg2+ 36. Kxg2 Ne4 37. Be3 Rc8 38. Be6 Rb8 39. h4
Nc5 40. h5 Rf8 41. h4 Kg7 42. h6+ Kh8 43. Bg4 Rg8 44. Kh3
Rf8 45. h5 Ne4 46. Kg2 Rg8 47. Kf3 Ng5+ 48. Ke2 Ne4 49. Rg1
Nc5 50. Bf5 Rxg1 51. Bxg1 Nxb3 52. Bc2 Bd4 53. Bh2 Nc5
54. Bf4 Bf6 55. Be3 Kg8 56. h7+ Kh8 57. Kf2 Nd7 58. Ke1 Bb2
59. Ke2 Bc3 60. Bg1 Bb2 61. Bf2 Bf6 62. Be3 Nc5 63. Kf2 Nd7
64. Kg3 Nc5 65. Kf4 Kg7 66. Kg4 Kh8 67. h6 Nd7 68. Kh5 Nc5
69. Bf2 Nd7 70. Bg1 Nc5 71. Be3 Nd7 72. Bg1 Nc5 73. Be3 1-0


Btw it was a 60 + 15 game

Bye
Ingo

PS: For those who dont like my postings, please ignore me!

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